Is the internal impossible in modern times

[Scott R. Brown]

Maybe I should follow the principles of Tao more eh?
I am still a student, and always will be. Never said anything other. Just offering advice. No one has to listen, I really care not.
Jake

Hi Jake,

We all follow the principles of Tao; it is impossible not too. Whether you are a conscious participant in their application or not is your own choice.

When we learn to observe and apply the principles of Tao we become in greater accord with Tao and this works to our advantage. That is, we receive benefits from their application.

There are times when the choices we make result in a less efficient manner of achieving our purpose. One of the principles of Tao is the conservation of energy. If followed this principle guides us to use the most efficient means to accomplish a purpose. Why use 85% effort when 10% effort will accomplish the same task. On one hand you have 15% energy reserves; on the other you have 90% energy reserve. The efficient use of energy is determined by our purpose, what we are attempting to accomplish. So if my purpose is to move rock, I can wait for erosion to do it or I can use some artfully placed sticks of TNT.

The principle of the conservation of energy has been universally perceived by students of the processes of nature (Tao) and encouraged across history and cultures. There have been aphorisms used to describe this principle:

Waste not, want not!
A penny saved is a penny earned!
A stitch in time saves nine!
etc.

Hard and Soft describe a relationship between phenomena; they are not absolute conditions. An identical action may be performed according to two different circumstances. In one circumstance the action may be considered HARD and in the other circumstance it may be considered SOFT. The action in and of itself is neither Hard nor Soft without something else to contrast it with.

Your comments are as welcome as anyone else's. But in the end most of us don’t care either.

i do try to follow the tao as much as i can, but one of the greatest if not the greatest taoists of all time, lao tzu, wrote that soft overcomes hard. which everything i read from the tao te ching applies to everything, so i am not one to argue with a purely enlightened taoist like him.

Hi tai chi hermit,

Writings on Tao are not to be taken as absolute doctrine; they are to be used as a guide aiding us in direct understanding for ourselves. The words describe conditions of being and principles of processes that are to be directly understood through experience, not blindly followed just because someone said them. The words are the finger pointing to the moon, they are not the moon. Our purpose should be to directly perceive the moon for ourselves, not focus on the description of the moon or the path to follow in order to perceive the moon.

Direct observation of the nature of phenomena demonstrates that most of the time Hard overcomes Soft. That is, the active principle overcomes the passive principle. This is clearly illustrated by Yin-Yang. However, this is only true according to a specific context. One could conceive of a condition wherein the passive principle draws the active principle towards it. That is, instead of Yang actively entering a space, Yin empties the space drawing Yang to fill it. However, the act of “drawing” is an active principle; the act of “following” is a passive principle. So when the passive principle draws the active principle towards it, it is transformed into the active principle by the act of “drawing” while the active principle is transformed into the passive principle by the act of “following”.

The principle of Soft overcoming Hard describes a relationship of phenomena. It is the context that determines which principle is considered Hard and which is considered Soft. When the principle of the conservation of energy is followed it means it is more productive to accomplish a task using the least amount of energy as possible.

[Scott R. Brown]

Poor cjurakpt! We hardly knew ye!!

I tried to warn him, but he just wouldn't listen.

At any rate, I have discovered the secret of life! It is......Hey! What the HELL are you guys doing.......


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! SPLAT!!!

[Three Harmonies]

Someone has too much time on his hands! Practice more, read the Tao De Jing less

[Scott R. Brown]

Someone has too much time on his hands! Practice more, read the Tao De Jing less

Spoken like a true novice! It is wiser to train smart than to train foolishly. Learning the principles of Tao and applying them to your life in an effective manner improves the quality of ones training as well as all other endeavors of life. While not training at all is a detriment, not studying at all is foolishness as well. Finding the right balance is the key to successfully applying the principles of Tao to training and life.

One may perceive the processes of Tao in all phenomena including training, cooking, working and any other activity of life. The Chinese and Japanese understood this. That is why true masters also studied and excelled at other arts such as Tea ceremony, Calligraphy, Flower Arrangement, Painting, Poetry, etc.

It does not require any reading of the Tao Te Ching or Chuang-tzu or any other authorities. All it takes is a basic understanding of the main principles and then persistent observation of how they apply/function in life.

The point of understanding and applying the principles of Tao to our lives is to learn to accommodate ourselves in a manner that the principles work to our benefit. Working against the processes of Tao produces negative consequences in proportion to the amount of deviation from the mean/balance point. Energy is conserved and the processes work to our benefit when we accommodate to the principles of Tao.

If we are swimming in a river, and we wish to reach the shore, a person in tune with Tao moves with the flow of the river, (accommodates to Tao), and works their way to shore at a slight angle to the current. This behavior conserves energy and enhances the opportunity for successfully achieving our purpose. A person out of accord with Tao fights the current by swimming against it, or wastes energy by swimming across the current. This action wastes energy and reduces or complicates the opportunity for success.

As Lao-tzu teaches, a wise person, when they learn of Tao, seeks to apply the principles to their life; foolish people mock it.

At some times it is of greater benefit to study more and train less. Someday you may understand this principle. If you do not you are choosing to behave like the foolish person and not the wise!

[sunfist]

The internal is impossible if you are a hippy. Within the framework of modern society, hippies flourish much more readily, hence giving the impression that modernisation itself has prevented true insight into internal arts.

When the reality is youre probably just a hippy.

[woliveri]

The internal is impossible if you are a hippy. Within the framework of modern society, hippies flourish much more readily, hence giving the impression that modernisation itself has prevented true insight into internal arts.

When the reality is youre probably just a hippy.

Hey, I resemble that remark!!

[tai chi hermit]

Hi Jake,


Hi tai chi hermit,

Writings on Tao are not to be taken as absolute doctrine; they are to be used as a guide aiding us in direct understanding for ourselves. The words describe conditions of being and principles of processes that are to be directly understood through experience, not blindly followed just because someone said them. The words are the finger pointing to the moon, they are not the moon. Our purpose should be to directly perceive the moon for ourselves, not focus on the description of the moon or the path to follow in order to perceive the moon.

Direct observation of the nature of phenomena demonstrates that most of the time Hard overcomes Soft. That is, the active principle overcomes the passive principle. This is clearly illustrated by Yin-Yang. However, this is only true according to a specific context. One could conceive of a condition wherein the passive principle draws the active principle towards it. That is, instead of Yang actively entering a space, Yin empties the space drawing Yang to fill it. However, the act of “drawing” is an active principle; the act of “following” is a passive principle. So when the passive principle draws the active principle towards it, it is transformed into the active principle by the act of “drawing” while the active principle is transformed into the passive principle by the act of “following”.

The principle of Soft overcoming Hard describes a relationship of phenomena. It is the context that determines which principle is considered Hard and which is considered Soft. When the principle of the conservation of energy is followed it means it is more productive to accomplish a task using the least amount of energy as possible.

I understand what your are saying, but then why would he 'lao tzu' not follow up by saying the hardest thing in the universe overcomes the softest

[Scott R. Brown]

I understand what your are saying, but then why would he 'lao tzu' not follow up by saying the hardest thing in the universe overcomes the softest

Hi tai chi hermit,

That is a very good question.

Taoist tradition goes back some 3-4,000 years and perhaps further. During that time there have been innumerable works written by those who are students of Tao. There is at least one work entitled Nei Yeh that precedes the Tao Te Ching by perhaps a couple of hundred years. Chinese translations of the Tao Te Ching alone number over 100 with somewhere above 2,000 commentaries. English translations, which are numerous as well, often vary concerning the translation of the verses. I image the same thing occurs with the Chinese translations and the commentaries.

Keep in mind that studying and learning concerning Tao is a process of growth with no discernable finish line providing no fixed definition/doctrine. The Tao that can be told/named/fixed/pinned down/clearly defined is not the true/absolute/complete/real Tao. Conversations, instructions, doctrines, writings are not the final word on Tao. Direct experience is, and that experience is a condition of changeless change.

Many teachings on Tao are filled with apparent paradoxes. The Tao Te Ching itself states in the first stanza: “The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao!”, but then goes on to speak about Tao. Why is this? Because words are what we use to describe experiences to one and other. But the description is not to be taken for the ACTUAL experience. Words are inadequate indicators of direct experience. The DESCRIPTION of the taste of an orange is not the ACTUAL EXPERIENCE of the taste of an orange. So the first line of the Tao Te Ching is similar to, “The description of the taste of an orange should not be confused with the actual taste of an orange!” “The description of Tao should not be confused with ACTUAL Tao!”, the description is not the thing itself!

Paradox is a useful tool to help the mind exceed rational distinctions. Tao is not just something we think about. It is also something we experience. Without the direct experience the words we read and thoughts we have bear no necessary resemblance to the actual experience. Following the experience we use words to attempt to describe the experience. Preceding that, the descriptive words are only a vague indication of the actual experience. Our understanding is incomplete. The words/descriptions of others serve the purpose of directing us in the right direction to have the experience for ourselves and to help us recognize and understand the experience when we have it. Your description of happiness only has meaning to me because I have had the direct experience of happiness. If I had never experienced happiness your description would be somewhat meaningless and incomprehensible to me. Once I actually experience happiness for myself I have an “Aha!” moment because I finally understand your description.

Concerning soft overcoming hard, it is a truism according to certain specific contexts, but it is not an absolute statement of reality, meaning it is not true in all circumstances.

Yin-Yang is the principle illustration of Tao. It is not YIN-yang, and it is not yin-YANG. It is Yin-Yang. Yin and Yang are mutually arising, equal. One is not pre-eminent over the other in value or function. Yin and Yang occur simultaneously, the one exists because of the existence of the other. If one ceases to exist the other is extinguished simultaneously. One cannot take eternal precedence over the other. Certainly there are times when one dominates the other, Yin-Yang illustrates this with its rhythmic cycle, but in reality Yin IS Yang and Yang IS Yin. Which is which at what specific time depends upon the context in which they are perceived.

Because of the illustration of Tao as represented by Yin-Yang we know some truths concerning Tao, we know that Soft CANNOT universally and absolutely overcome Hard. It is immaterial whether we understand why Lao Tzu made his assertion or not, the actual real world facts and philosophical (reasoned) evidence indicates this to be false if taken as an absolute principle. So we come to the conclusion that, if we assume Lao Tzu knew what he was talking about, he did not intend for the comment to be taken as an absolute condition of Tao. Therefore the error is in our understanding or interpretation of his meaning. His meaning applies to a specific context and it is the context we must discern in order to understand his meaning. In a later post I will address the specific stanza (#43) of the Tao Te Ching.

Following is number of English translations of stanza #43. It would be a benefit for others to share their thoughts concerning the meaning of this stanza so anyone desiring to do so, please join in the discussion.

[Scott R. Brown]

Stan Rosenthal:

Only the soft overcomes the hard,
by yielding, bringing it to peace.

Even where there is no space,
that which has no substance enters in.

Through these things is shown
the value of the natural way.

The wise man understands full well,
that wordless teaching can take place,

and that actions should occur
without the wish for self-advancement.

Peter A. Merel: based on the translations of Robert G. Henricks, Lin Yutang, D.C. Lau, Ch'u Ta-Kao, Gia-Fu Feng & Jane English, Richard Wilhelm and Aleister Crowley.

Water overcomes the stone;
Without substance it requires no opening;
This is the benefit of taking no action.

Yet benefit without action,
And experience without abstraction,
Are practiced by very few.

Raymond B. Blakney

The softest of stuff in the world
Penetrates quickly the hardest;

Insubstantial, it enters
Where no room is.
By this I know the benefit
Of something done by quiet being;

In all the world but few can know
Accomplishment apart from work,
Instruction when no words are used.

S. Mitchell

The gentlest thing in the world
overcomes the hardest thing in the world.
That which has no substance
enters where there is no space.
This shows the value of non-action.

Teaching without words,
performing without actions:
that is the Master's way.

J. Legge

The softest thing in the world dashes against and overcomes the hardest;

that which has no (substantial) existence enters where there is no crevice. I know hereby what advantage belongs to doing nothing (with a purpose).

There are few in the world who attain to the teaching without words, and the advantage arising from non-action.

Charles Muller

The softest thing in the world
Will overcome the hardest.

Non-being can enter where there is no space.

Therefore I know the benefit of unattached action.

The wordless teaching and unattached action are rarely seen.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

A wonderful interpretation of Yin/Yang relationships was given to me by a mentor..

Yin is permanent, consistent, understated.. Yang is temporary, recurring and over-stated.. Yin's softness is misinterpreted, it is supremely hard.. only displaying itself as "soft" as its hardness is spread throughout ALL that IS.. Yang's hardness is misinterpreted, its "hardness" is temporary and expressed in temporary bursts.. on balance, the consistency envelops the temporary.. in eternal cycles..

i liked this rendition, still do... i think we suffer from limited perspectives, we try to apply Universal principles to specific situations, like Taiji relative to conflict.. in the microcosom of our physical perceptions, the properties of Yin/Yang are mutable and relative.. Adrian's table/air analogy illustrates this: while the table expresses its hardness definitively, it is temporary compared to the air's longevity.. the table will yield its hardness over time, returning to dust.. the air will still be there, consistent and appearing soft as ever..

Be well..

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://crane.50megs.com/index6j.htm

The above link involves Mas Oyama's challenge to old Tai Chi master Chen. According to Oyama, he was bettered by the Tai Chi master.

Thank you

And we have also seen Kyokushin fighters have a hard time dealing with the taikiken guys ( check youtube).

Fact is, to train in only ONE manner is setting yourself up for defeat, its like training only in striking or only in grappling, you are half developed at best, incomplete always.

[doug maverick]

alot of the taikiken guys are like fourth degree black belts in kyokushin at least thats what i heard.

[tai chi hermit]

i can say that this being as it was (an argument) has really come to enlighten me, but the way i view it, as not all people do, is that hard (the table, fist, kick, etc.) has no effect against the soft (a person moving with the blow or intercepting it) therefore the one exerting all the force will tire. then the soft has his chance to show the hard(yang) in himself. which theres a phrase from the art of war that is one of my favorites that really sums all this up...

Art of War - Chapter 4

The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy."........."Security against defeat implies defensive tactics; ability to defeat the enemy means taking the offensive."

and i have got to say the scott and the others posting about yin + yang, seems as though you all should be writing the books and lao tzu reading them, eh? hehe

[cjurakpt]

let's also consider a few things about Lao Tzu "the man" (if in fact he actually ever lived); he was a librarian, so he obviously was more of a thinker than a doer; he ostensibly left wherever it was he was working because he perceived the state of "the state" to be corrupt and whatnot; he was human and like any human, predisposed to some sort of personal bias, no matter what - but at least he knew that - because to me, he clearly points it out in the first line: "the Dao that can be spoken is not the eternal Dao" - it's not just a general statment, it's a very artistically worded, literary form of disclaimer - in other words, in my opinion, he's telling you straight out, in essence, "everything that now follows is just my personal opinion, not the 'truth'"! think about it...

that said, I believe that he was not writing down something that was necessarily for "the ages" - I think he didn't think so much of himself that he believed that 2,000 plus years later people would be reading his meanderings and taklng them as representative of an entire school of philisophical thought - rather, I believe, he was writing a "prescrption" for the ills that he perceived to be besetting China at that particular moment in time; if what he wrote has any bearing on our modern condition it is simply because history is doomed to repeat itself - the human condition is the human condition, and the truth is the truth, so to speak; or he'd been locked up with dusty scrolls for far too long and the preservatives that he'd been applying to them went to his head...

my point is that to fixate on Lao Tzu as some sort of authority is the exact opposite of what, I think, he would have "wanted"; the Ch'an teachers talk about "drinking the dregs" of other people's experience when you take what is written down as authoritative, because, fundamentally, it robs you of the capacity for spontaneous "suchness" - if every time you are faced with a "problem" in life, referencing anything outside of the immediacy of that situation takes you out of that situation, whether it's the Bible, the Tao Te Ching, what your mother told you, etc.; so it's fine and great to read Lao Tzu and others (again, I always found the Chuang Tzu much more interesting), but once you've read it, you may as well toss it on the rubbish bin for all it's worth, because going back and continually refencing it simply reinforces the golden chain you have put around your own ankle - rember, the sixth patriarch of Ch'an, Hui Neng, was an illiterate peasant, and I know at least one drawing of him where he's depicted as tearing up the sutras...

[RonH]

Greetings..

A wonderful interpretation of Yin/Yang relationships was given to me by a mentor..

Yin is permanent, consistent, understated.. Yang is temporary, recurring and over-stated.. Yin's softness is misinterpreted, it is supremely hard.. only displaying itself as "soft" as its hardness is spread throughout ALL that IS.. Yang's hardness is misinterpreted, its "hardness" is temporary and expressed in temporary bursts.. on balance, the consistency envelops the temporary.. in eternal cycles..

i liked this rendition, still do... i think we suffer from limited perspectives, we try to apply Universal principles to specific situations, like Taiji relative to conflict.. in the microcosom of our physical perceptions, the properties of Yin/Yang are mutable and relative.. Adrian's table/air analogy illustrates this: while the table expresses its hardness definitively, it is temporary compared to the air's longevity.. the table will yield its hardness over time, returning to dust.. the air will still be there, consistent and appearing soft as ever..

Be well..

I've held the opposite approach. Yin is what's temporary, always changing and adapting. With the hand waving example, Yin is what makes the air molecules move about because of one force or another (the waving hand, the transfer of heat from high concentrations to low). The sliding of a car when the brakes are slammed too quickly. For me, Yang is the permanance, the force that initiates change (where Yin is the act of change itself), like electrostatic repulsion. Yin is the potential of reality because of its infinte malleability.

The realization of Yin is Yang. The catalyst for the realization of Yin comes from Yang. Yin is constantly changing, forever moving in an infinte number of directions because of the always present forces of Yang acting upon it.