An Epic of Internet-challenge Stupidity

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Apparently .0005% of MCMAP is Tai Tzu.

[Asia]

Apparently .0005% of MCMAP is Tai Tzu.

Well some guys do call it "Semper Fu"

[rogue]

Asia,
What are the green hats training these days? Are they adding something of their own to the official program or still doing their own home grown unconventional thing?

[Asia]

Asia,
What are the green hats training these days? Are they adding something of their own to the official program or still doing their own home grown unconventional thing?

They are getting cart blanche to do whatever they want.

You guys want a cage to play in? Sure its only a couple of grand.

What? You want to travel cross country to roll? Sure cut the orders.

[FatherDog]

As a side note, I like how people say "The ground is the last place you want to be in a street fight" as if that was an argument against BJJ.

It's actually the strongest argument for BJJ.

In a real fight situation, most fights will come in two types - the insults, chest puffing, macho shoving-match leading up to someone finally getting the nerve to throw a punch, and then the type where the guy next to you decides he heard you say something about his girl, or doesn't like your ethnicity, or wants your wallet, isn't interested in talking about it, and throws down on you before you know there's a fight going on or even if he's there.

The first type of fight is the one you can see coming, which means it's the one you shouldn't be in - you should be doing the Bruce Lee fighting by not fighting thing, de-escalating verbally, talking him down, etc.

In the second type of fight, you're not going to know you're in a fight until it's already happening, and at that point he's probably already either hit you or tackled you. If he hits you while you're not looking, odds are you may fall down. If he tackles you without looking, you're almost certainly going down unless you have superhuman reflexes.

Now, guess what - YOU'RE IN THE LAST PLACE YOU WANT TO BE IN A STREETFIGHT. You're on the ground with the broken glass and syringes and lava where you can get kicked in the head, and you probably have a guy on top of you throwing punches, or even worse standing above you stomping on you.

If you've trained a lot of BJJ, you may not be used to the punches and kicks (although even many academies that aren't MMA still work with strikes regularly), but at least you're used to being underneath someone, controlling his posture and controlling his legs while going for sweeps or subs, so you have a decent chance of choking him out, or sweeping him and getting up where you can run away, just like Anthony was able to continually clinch and shoot even after having his bell rung, because that was what he had trained to do over and over and that was what he was familiar with.

If you've trained a lot of MMA, you're used to all the above /and/ you're used to getting punched while doing it, even if it's not as hard as you're getting hit now, so you have an even better chance of choking him out quick or getting up and away.

If, on the other hand, the extent of your grappling training is a couple throws from your forms and a few submissions that chain off those throws that you work "every once in a while"... now you're in a position you're almost never in in training, you've just gotten your bell rung, and your odds of being able to pull off anything but "eat punches till you're spitting teeth" or "turn over to try and get up and take stomps and kicks to the back of the head and spine" are very, very slim.

For real, realistic self-defense training, BJJ and some form of realistic knife defense (such as STAB, or possibly others which someone more knowledgeable on weapons than I, such as Knifefighter, could probably provide) should be top priorities. Striking should be a distant third.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If, on the other hand, the extent of your grappling training is a couple throws from your forms and a few submissions that chain off those throws that you work "every once in a while"... now you're in a position you're almost never in in training, you've just gotten your bell rung, and your odds of being able to pull off anything but "eat punches till you're spitting teeth" or "turn over to try and get up and take stomps and kicks to the back of the head and spine" are very, very slim.

Reply]
This is another reason why I advocate cross training in a ground system...just enough in case you get in trouble.

For real, realistic self-defense training, BJJ and some form of realistic knife defense (such as STAB, or possibly others which someone more knowledgeable on weapons than I, such as Knifefighter, could probably provide) should be top priorities. Striking should be a distant third.

Reply]
I think my Kung Fu is just fine with strikes, locks and throws. No need to add anything there. As far as adding a Knife fighting system, I'd go to Black Jack or Mas Judt way before knife fighter....of course that has to do with the fact that both are in my back yard , but also because I trust thier skills.

[The Xia]

Everyone isn't sick of TCMA vs. MMA yet?

[Phrost]

Everyone isn't sick of TCMA vs. MMA yet?

Real Traditional Chinese Martial Artists actually tested their skills via *gasp* fighting, and if your school sucked you got run out of town.

The overwhelming majority of what is now called "TCMA" is anything but traditional.

This has always been People Who Advocate Effective Training vs. LARPers, Walter Mittys, and Frauds, and not MMA vs. TMA/TCMA/whatever.

[jmd161]

Real Traditional Chinese Martial Artists actually tested their skills via *gasp* fighting, and if your school sucked you got run out of town.

The overwhelming majority of what is now called "TCMA" is anything but traditional.

This has always been People Who Advocate Effective Training vs. LARPers, Walter Mittys, and Frauds, and not MMA vs. TMA/TCMA/whatever.

True!


I myself hate these discussions, but I also think they're helping to take TCMA back to where it needs to be.



jeff

[johnnycache]

MMA fighters DO get "arrogant" around other "martial artists" sometimes. Let's not draw the line at "traditional" vs "mma" but rather at "hard and real" vs "stripmall hypothesizers"

Why?

Because when you fight every day, spar every class, walk around bruised all the time, and actually, routinely fight with people that are actually, really trying to hurt you (you can gripe all you want about "rules" but there's really not a whole lot of holding back in MMA) . . . you don't want to be lectured by some guy that does kung fu at the rec center about how he gave a guy a black eye this one time and he could easily nerve rip his way out of an RNC...it ****es you off.

A point fighter tells you it's more important to make contact first because "in a real fight" that's what matters. . . it ****es you off.

A video tape master tells you eastern martial arts are better then boxing "because they have kicking" . . . it ****es you off.

You tell someone you do martial arts and they picture Kip from Napoleon Dynamite . . . yep, it ****es you off.

You know how durable the human body is, you know your own breaking points and those of others inside and out, and you have to hear from armchair heroes how the nosebone can go into the brain, it ... that's right, ****es you off.

You spend years learning the right ways to hit someone without giving up your balance, the right ways to take someone from their feet, the right way to keep someone on their back, the right way to submit someone, only to have people tell you "that's just streetfighting there's no skill there, not like kung fu" . . . it ****es you off.

Now I'm sure none of this applies to any of you - you all, of course, only train at REAL kung fu schools where you do the hard stuff the old way, right? So you agree with me about the idiots out there that cheapen us all.

On to RD - a few comments I HAVE TO address:

Dude, you're arguing about the content of the army combatives program with someone who teaches it for a living.

You are strawmanning OVER and OVER by INSISTING that it is the first tenet of military grappling to take the enemy to the ground.

And finally "good kung fu has all the same elements as BJJ except the ground grappling"

Dude, seriously, that's LITERALLY saying, "Kung fu is just as complete as BJJ but it isn't"

and to the "ON TEH STREETS NO IS RULES ANYTHING GOES ANY MEENS NEEDED WHT GO IN RING NO MATTER CUZ OF CRIPS WITH UZIS" crowd... you know what? I'll tell you, from years of hard living, that on "the mean streets" THE SURPRISE ATTACK IS KING and neither body of technique will attune you to that, it's a skill independent of hand to hand fighting.

That fact, however, does not excuse poor training.

Getting really, really good at fighting hand to hand won't HURT you on the street. Knowing that the best way to kick someone's ass is to jump them unaware is no reason not to train to fight someone who IS aware - because you don't always dictate the terms you fight on. Street tactics are intrinsic - the dirty rush on the street favors the attacker, period.
Street awareness and attack awareness are what save your life, martial arts training you may or may not have is simply a factor in your response.

All this swaggering crap about how "that's just the ring, in the street things are different" stuff, that's got to go. It makes no sense. If you can't beat a man you know is coming, how will you beat a man you don't know is coming? If you can't beat one man, how will you beat two? If you can't beat an unarmed man, how will you beat an armed man? If you seriously believe an untrained fighter is a greater threat then a trained fighter, why are you training? Is your answer to "can you fight one man in a ring" seriously, always going to be "who cares, it could be worse then one man?"

You can't go get in real bar fights and gang violence every day. Real bar fighters and gang members don't even get in bar fights and gang violence every day. You can only simulate as best you can - and the pace and intensity of MMA or other full contact, limited rules sparring are a far better approximation then any sparring where simulation enters the picture.

What does this mean? In the words of the Dog Brothers, "This is a stick. It's not a sword, it's not a magic wand, it's a stick"

The second you break down and say "oh man IF this situation would have been X then I would have done Y and you'd be Z" your training has failed.

Any point sparring where you "score" hits as more then they actually are? Failed training. No, you didn't hit that guy. No, you wouldn't have hurt him "in real life" because your level of contact is terrible. Level of contact requires long term training of gross motor skills and distancing - it is HARDER to change accustomed level of contact, esp. from soft to hard, then it is to change your aim from an allowed area to a prohibited one. Train full contact with the targets that are safe for full contact, and you'll find you aren't as delicate as you think, and also that you CAN hit places that aren't safe if you want.

Simulation needs to be either extremely self evident (fake knife leaves a deep scratch in your neck, not hard to figure out) or non-existent, IE "well, I took him down and strangled him," not "I stole his momentum and captured his balance, then I checked a blow that could have been lethal just in time"

The simulative, ceremonial, hypothetical mindset is the enemy of realistic training, and unrealistic training gets your head stomped in the octagon.

When I train something for MMA, it is literally no more then days (at the outside) from the first apprehension of the technique to the first chance to use it full speed. Contrasted to my experience in what would be called "traditional" martial arts, where it might be months or even years before I could spar, and in that sparring I would not be able to use the full body of technique, and I'll tell you each week of the MMA training is worth a month of the "traditional" (note: quoted because hard, real training IS traditional, the non-sparring "tradition" is an invention of the 60s-70s-80s karate/kung fu pop culture) training, if not more. MMA is the best "lab" I have found, in 15 or so years of training, for "experimentation" with martial arts and hand to hand situations.

So if a pragmatic, brutal, "fighting oriented," un-philosophical cage fighter seems ****y or arrogant or annoyed around you, seems to brush off your ideas about kung fu or fighting in general, check to see if he has a point before you let your undergarments bunch up.

And if he doesn't - feel free to drop by his gym and demonstrate what you're talking about. If it keeps his head on his shoulders, or unmounts the other guy's he'll use it and he won't care what country it came from.

[Mr Punch]

Tan Belt
The tan belt syllabus focuses on the development of the basics of armed and unarmed combat. Students start with the Basic Warrior Stance and break-falls are taught for safety, then move to:

basic punches, uppercuts, and hooks
basic upper-body strikes, including the eye gouge, hammer fists, and elbow strikes
basic lower-body strikes, including kicks, knee strikes, and stomps
bayonet techniques
basic chokes and throws
counters to strikes, chokes, and holds
basic unarmed restraints and armed manipulations
basic knife techniques
basic weapons of opportunity
Students must prove proficiency with 80% of 50 techniques to pass and earn their belt. The tan belt syllabus is part of The Basic School and recruit training curriculum.

Gray Belt
The gray belt syllabus expands on the basic techniques with:

intermediate bayonet techniques
intermediate upper-body strikes including knife-hands (karate chops) and elbow strikes
intermediate lower-body strikes including kicks, knee strikes, and stomps
intermediate chokes and throws
counters to strikes, chokes, and holds
intermediate unarmed restraints and armed manipulations
intermediate knife techniques
basic ground fighting
basic nonlethal baton techniques
intermediate weapons on opportunity

Green Belt
The Green belt technique shifts focus from defensive to offensive techniques with:

intermediate bayonet techniques
muscle gouging
intermediate chokes and throws
counters to strikes
intermediate unarmed manipulation
intermediate ground fighting intermediate nonlethal baton techniques
advanced weapons of opportunity

Brown Belt
advanced bayonet techniques
advanced ground fighting and chokes
advanced throws
unarmed vs. hand held weapons
firearm retention
firearm disarmament
advanced knife techniques
advanced nonlethal baton techniques

Black Belt 1st Degree
advanced bayonet techniques
advanced chokes, holds, and throws
advanced ground fighting
basic counter firearm techniques
advanced upper-body strikes, including strikes and smashes
advanced knife techniques
pressure points
improvised weapons

Black Belt 2nd Degree
rifle vs. rifle
short weapon vs. rifle
unarmed vs. rifle

Not that this irrelevant BS in a sea of irrelevant BS means anything, but bolded are the parts that I think could come from or strongly overlap with BJJ training. If you are still banging on about BJJ being only groundwork, you're as ignorant as... well, RD.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my almost 30 years of MA training, competing, bouncing and military, my "sport combat arts" have never failed me once, ever.
I am a traditionalist, my arts are TMA and when I read the article on BJJ back in 86 I wanted to try it out, there wasn't any around, so I went back to judo ( having done it back in Portugal till 86) and as soon as I was able to try it out I did and it was great fun.

In the Canadian military its basically Boxing, MT, Judo and Sambo or was when I left in 98, I am sure it has added BJJ and rightly so, why not add something that works ?

My BJJ/MMA instructors ( Fabiano and Santos) were great and taught me stuff that I will keep with me forever, I don't see why anyone should have a problem with a system that has been proved over and over again.

Don't like the people?
Fine.
But I have yet to meet a high ranking BJJ practioner that is NOT a super nice guy.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

WRONG. I am stationed with Marines, as well a Navy and Air Force. This is a training center were all branches, even foreign forces come to train. I still have way more insight in this than you do

Reply]
Ok. If you are in the mix, then you are in the mix.

Considering your depth of immersion, can you answer this? How come I have heard from Marines that they really don't do much BJJ?

There is even an example from this forum.

Marines Training BJJ on their own and THE MARINE CORPS training Marines in BJJ are two different things. I just got out of the Marine Corps this year, and right now the MCMAProgram is not BJJ heavy. Although BJJ/westling is done from time to time for fun it is not a big part of the official curriculum.

It just so happens that the Marine Corps tends to draw on the same personalities as BJJ/MMA, so your bound to get crossover.



I was never taught any BJJ in the Marine Corps. I would not call the basic level stuff BJJ. It may share some similarities to standing BJJ self defense, I'll take your word on that, but it is also just like the standing self defense of just about every other martial art I've done. Nothing I was taught in MCMAP was anything like the BJJ I learned from Clay Pittman.

Asia,
I have no doubt what you are telling me is true, but I also do not doubt what others are telling me is true...so what gives, why the large disparity between everyone's testimony?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Perspective and point of view,that's all.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You are either doing it, or not. There is no room for interpretive perspective here.