Where would you stick the Pole?

[southernkf]

WSl wasnt the only one...
If you dont know the pole and how it carries over you wont be working at your max potential, thats not that you cant either...you just need to see it and then say..hmmm how come I never had that expalined like that before....you answered your own question...many didnt get that far to understand the connection at all....just a redundant stick ?? i dont think so. And it doubles over to a pool cue nicely ouch

I agree with all this. WSL was good, but he wasn't the only one. The danger starts with acknowledging him for his attainment, which latter seems to turn into the most likely only one to learn this or that. Yip Man has been reported to say he didn't teach the entire system to more than 5 people (not sure if he even actually said that, but it is reported), but that doesn't mean the knowledge wasn't around in more than those 5 people. Meaning he taught the pole to some one and the knives to someone else. They then taught each other the other weapons under the knowledge of Yip Man. That is how all schools are ran. Who ONLY learns from their teacher? Heck, the Dummy wasn't even around in the beginning. So I suppose the early students don't know the dummy either? LOL. But I digress....


I like your last statement. THis I think is vital to a lot of wing chun. What you do with it and your understanding of it may not be the depth of what that something is. The pole, knives, and dummies all offer more than just their simple apparent use as weapons or a "partner". As I learn more of wing chun I find there is nothing redundant or useless. Wing Chun is very elegant and deep. The knees in stance and elbows in are very specific to their reason. Some one included the Pole and knives for a specific reason. If it was purely for self defense, I suspect other knives, and stick forms would have been included over a 8 foot single headed pole. But regardless what its intent is, what can you get out of it? As was mentioned, the pole offers a lot.

[Mano Mano]

Its obvious that the 6 &1/2 point pole has been adapted to civilian use through out the generations however Chinese long poles were most likely military in origin the only real difference between the 6 &1/2 point pole & a Chinese long spear (mao) is the lack of a spear head & tassel.
The mao sometimes referred to as a Chinese pike was used on the battle field against cavalry as the European pike was to protect archers, crossbowmen & later musket men the Chinese armies face the same problems on the battle field as there European & Middle Eastern counter parts. Pikes & mao weren’t just used to repel cavalry by jamming the but into the ground they had fighting techniques parrying & striking were also used for close quarters i.e. the length of the weapon.
One main characteristic found in the Wing Chun pole is that the techniques are mostly linear which is how you would use pikes & similar weapons in a small formation of men against horsemen who found they couldn’t just charge through the tight formations which would also so come in handy if you had to repel a boat to boat boarding as pikes were used in English Elizabethan navies.

[tjwingchun]

Funny but nice to see Edmund here, he used to come to our Wing Chun school when he first arrived in the North East and introduced Choy Lee Fut, that was in 1975/6, His top student Jonny is a good friend though not seen him for some time, not been to Julies in many a year, lol.

Good to see you onboard this forum and hope the weather is as nice in your own little world as it is out here in Colonia de Sant Jordi and your views mimic mine as to the use of the pole but I will be putting those down in more detail a bit later when I have more time.

Trevor

[k gledhill]

Knives & Pole knowledge are essential to have a clear understanding of the tactics that will guide the bare hands as well in freefighting . WSL would tell anyone who asked ...problem being not many knew to even ask .
The basic knees in stance is never done fighting in a static manner as form training ...only to develop certain traits and establish a simple 'neutral' point that 2 students could move out of as they train triangulating to a line of force from each others stepping in attacks in chi-sao. Done randomly in chi-sao to develop instinctive maneuvering OFF the charge linebut maintain striking distance to make contact with sufficient focused /aligned force/structure [pole] to drop or begin countering an attack at the appropriate distances to keep focused strikes[ pole] on someones body/head from an angle they give you by ther actions [ knife ] ......., but because so many spend so much tme in it doing chisao they get sucked into a redundant fighting method, facing square on turning left right in center to a charging takedown , some even waddling towards their attacker in a basic stance...Mobility is the first thing you need , mobility to both maneuever around and at the attack , fast lively shifting on the face of a clock on the floor beneath you...never adopting a lead leg stance until actually flanking someone , like an entrenched army waiting for the attack of the opposing force...machineguns placed in the far corners of the battlefiled , waiting for the right distance to open fire on helpless overwhelmed flanked attackers taken by surprise , unable to use their full force to fight the machine gun ....a self -clearing unjammable gun, that keeps on firing and chasing down the retreating attackers , maintaining its working ditances/range...always maneuvering itself to a side never in front of incoming fire from the opposing army. A provable and effective tactic used in WWI ...more soldiers where killed by this simple tactic of placing machineguns in each corner of a line , than any other, in D-Day, the same tactic was adopted by the Germans , but the U.S. forces learned to attack the machine guns in flanking countermeasures. never charging into the center of a open and inviting field . This flanking and counter flanking is VT fighting ...how we train ourselves , constantly maneuvering to an outside position dictated by the actions of the attacker and their movement....let them show you how to defeat them.
Stay with what comes [ becasue your counter attacking a 'shown ' move. ] follow through as it retreats [ you have higher percentage of survival being the attacker, longer than being the defender .]

[Mano Mano]

Funny but nice to see Edmund here, he used to come to our Wing Chun school when he first arrived in the North East and introduced Choy Lee Fut, that was in 1975/6, His top student Jonny is a good friend though not seen him for some time, not been to Julies in many a year, lol.

Good to see you onboard this forum and hope the weather is as nice in your own little world as it is out here in Colonia de Sant Jordi and your views mimic mine as to the use of the pole but I will be putting those down in more detail a bit later when I have more time.

Trevor

Hi Trevor, It's Alec been a while since we spoke, the last time we met was at one of Paul Tennet’s BBQ’s a couple of years back. Hope your enjoying the new life, lucky git .
The 6 & ½ point pole is one of my favourite pole forms. Having trained in the Chu Gar 5th son 8 gate pole I can appreciate the simplistic appearance & effectiveness of the wing chun long pole.

[tjwingchun]

Well hello Alec,

Was watching you about two days ago and a very young Paul T in a news clip I have on Edmund doing a lion dance for the Chinese New Year many years ago as I was looking through videos with no titles

You will have to organise a training holiday out here I am renting the gym out cheap and the apartments where the gym and bar are situated are very reasonable,

So just get a few lads together and have a week in the sun and train at the same time

Dare say will bump into you again in here so until then, nice to come across a fellow Geordie and all the best, will tell Paul you are getting in here as he does once in a blue moon, but tends not to post just read.

[Mano Mano]

Well hello Alec,

Was watching you about two days ago and a very young Paul T in a news clip I have on Edmund doing a lion dance for the Chinese New Year many years ago as I was looking through videos with no titles

a very long time ago.

Apologies to everyone else for going off topic, I hope to read more views about the wing chun pole, as someone who has studied the southern long pole from another system I think the form & the weapon is very underrated by most wing chun & non wing chun people.

[LoneTiger108]

I hope to read more views about the wing chun pole, as someone who has studied the southern long pole from another system I think the form & the weapon is very underrated by most wing chun & non wing chun people.

The same reason I joined this forum Mano Mano!

As a Lee Shing family member it does sometimes horrify me that the pole is still so under rated by fellow Wing Chun practitioners. I don't so much mind other stylists critical views, but the pole/stick training must have been 'added' for good reason! It just seems people tend to believe what movies say, rather than research themselves.

[Vajramusti]

Wing chun pole training adds a lot to structural strength, and empowers the hands further.
Its obsolete as a weapon but if you know what you are doing it's a great training tool for wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[Liddel]

Yip Man has been reported to say he didn't teach the entire system to more than 5 people (not sure if he even actually said that, but it is reported), but that doesn't mean the knowledge wasn't around in more than those 5 people. Meaning he taught the pole to some one and the knives to someone else. They then taught each other the other weapons under the knowledge of Yip Man.

This statement is very true in my teachers case.

My Sifu learnt the LDB from his Sifu, Lok Yiu. He later wanted to learn the BJD which he got from WSL (they were good friends) as a trade off for some detailed stuff about the pole that wong needed to refine.

Geez theres so much in our system, to train today and spend time making one of the weapons second nature to you is hard enough, let alone back in the days when you used to spend a year on SLT before moving up.....

My Sifu had me training the arrow horse for six months before even touching the pole...but damm it made the world of difference when i got to the form.

Of course people had to share, but there are others that just looked at copied which is where differences occur the most IMO and the major difference is not in the way the weapons look for the most part, but the energies involved by the practitioner, as a direct result of looking and learning.

I see very little of pole tips moving during practice, which is from elbow/body power sent through the pole and is for the most part why some refer to the BJD as a hand gun and the pole as a machine gun.....the source of force has changed through the years but lends back to the H2H system IMO.

DREW

[Liddel]

As a Lee Shing family member it does sometimes horrify me that the pole is still so under rated by fellow Wing Chun practitioners.

Not by me buddy, its the king of hand weapons.

Dont know why people think its so out of date, its not like you have to use a eight foot pole, we only use length for training... i can use a pole anywhere down to about 3 / 4 feet.... that is untill i gave it up for the BJD Sifu is a bit old now .

DREW

[sihing]

This statement is very true in my teachers case.

My Sifu learnt the LDB from his Sifu, Lok Yiu. He later wanted to learn the BJD which he got from WSL (they were good friends) as a trade off for some detailed stuff about the pole that wong needed to refine.

Geez theres so much in our system, to train today and spend time making one of the weapons second nature to you is hard enough, let alone back in the days when you used to spend a year on SLT before moving up.....

My Sifu had me training the arrow horse for six months before even touching the pole...but damm it made the world of difference when i got to the form.

Of course people had to share, but there are others that just looked at copied which is where differences occur the most IMO and the major difference is not in the way the weapons look for the most part, but the energies involved by the practitioner, as a direct result of looking and learning.

I see very little of pole tips moving during practice, which is from elbow/body power sent through the pole and is for the most part why some refer to the BJD as a hand gun and the pole as a machine gun.....the source of force has changed through the years but lends back to the H2H system IMO.

DREW

Drew,

I see allot of parallel's between the WSL method and Lok Yiu method through your posts as of late. Ernie just shared some of the pole work on his recent visit with us here, one of the drills is the arrow punching, lol. It reminds me of the days when my first Sifu made us do the Hung Gar stance drills up and down the floor, although he dropped teaching those styles, he still kept the excersise routines for Saturday's class, when we were all hungover. Stance drills are a good cure for hangover's.

My understanding now of the pole work (when I did TWC, it was all about using the staff as a weapon), is that it helps create a better stance and overall stronger structure, make one very hard to move, but easy to move others. Playing with it as little as I have now, I can see why

James

[Liddel]

Drew,
I see allot of parallel's between the WSL method and Lok Yiu method through your posts as of late.

My sifu and Wong were very good friends back in the day, we have a lot of similarities because of this IMO.

Ernie just shared some of the pole work on his recent visit with us here, one of the drills is the arrow punching, lol. It reminds me of the days when my first Sifu made us do the Hung Gar stance drills up and down the floor, although he dropped teaching those styles, he still kept the excersise routines for Saturday's class, when we were all hungover. Stance drills are a good cure for hangover's.

Hangovers .....? Damm, talk about sweatin out the toxins

If you are taught to have your thighs horizontal (going very low) during the arrow horse it can be very punishing. Sifu used to make me do this for ages, bout 40steps (20 foward then 20 back) followed by other drills like holding my front kick out with the kneee bent while one of my Si dai dragged me around without letting me straighten the leg.....
All i wanted to do was start using the pole, but i had to do the hard yards BEFORE EVEN TOUCHING IT....

My understanding now of the pole work, is that it helps create a better stance and overall stronger structure, make one very hard to move, but easy to move others. Playing with it as little as I have now, I can see why
James

Gm Ip told my Sifu that the LDB can hurt your Chi Sao while the BJD can hurt your footwork (because of the obvious differences) but man, after the arrow horse training i think the LDB just destroys you !


DREW

[LoneTiger108]

My Sifu learnt the LDB from his Sifu, Lok Yiu. He later wanted to learn the BJD which he got from WSL (they were good friends) as a trade off for some detailed stuff about the pole that wong needed to refine.

This may explain why you know of the Poles importance Drew, as Lok Yiu was a great Master and one of Lee Shings first teachers. Wong Shun Leung was always talked highly of as a weaponry man as I believe Lee Shing knew that without this type of 'reality' training your Wing Chun will be poor and (possibly) pointless.

Everything you 'touch' passes into your hands, so it's a shame to see you drop the stick in favour of the knives, as to me they are a Yum Yeurng (Yin Yang) and need equal attention IMHO...

[Vajramusti]

Gm Ip told my Sifu that the LDB can hurt your Chi Sao while the BJD can hurt your footwork (because of the obvious differences) but man, after the arrow horse training i think the LDB just destroys you !

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\Context! Time and place for evrything...A before B.....
joy chaudhuri