What has happened to the 'Rattan Rings'?

[anerlich]

I don't know why some people seem to believe that if you do anything outside of what they're doing your WC is going to suffer.

There's no shortage of evidence on this forum that (too) many people crave the approval of others for their own world view, and attack rhose who do not share it, out of, I guess, fear that the others might be right and they wrong, or that other people don't have the same regard for their intelligence (or otherwise) that they do.

I have such a ring, yes, and a dummy, but I hardly ever use the ring. IMO there are better ways to spend my training time. YMMV.

I have a kettlebell, and do a lot of those exercises, but I found that I could do almost all of the kettlebell drills using weight-adjustable dumbbells - swing, snatch, C&J, press, windmill, renegade rows, etc.. The prices the KB vendors charge for lumps of cast iron are tountamount to daylight robbery, and I'm just not prepared to pay them.

[Liddel]

it doesn't seem to be a common, or even vaguely used in Yip Man wing chun.

IME this is true.

My thought was the reason we don't see it, assuming Yip Man was aware of it, is because it is not fundamental to wing chun.

I agree

I would make the assumption that if it really developed skills, Yip Man and his students would have advocated its use. Perhaps it is a so called close door thing and all the great masters are hiding in the closet while doing the rings. LOL.

IMO its not a closed door thing, its purely to do with how one copes with learning VT as a style.

IMO Andrew pretty much nailed it on the head - there are better ways to get to the same results as the ring training. Then again people use it for different reasons.

Years ago i came across the rings (which id never seen nor heard of in my own training) and asked my Sifu if His teachers Lok Yiu or Gm Ip used/ advocated the use of the rings.... His account was that they did use it.....

BUT it was only offered to those that had trouble with elbow position and was used at the elbow position for that very purpose. To be perfectly honest my Sifu did look at it as training wheels for those that had problems with what many others didnt, hence it not being used by all.

- one man runs while another uses a tread mill - i personally skip - same purpose = cardio

Different strokes for different folks - dont seek others approval if you feel it works for you - i dont use it - you do - sweet.

DREW

[southernkf]

Someone on another forum told me that weight training, particularly kettlebells would ruin my WC. They also said I'd go blind too.

I don't understand the use of the ring, so I let it go in another thread here.
I don't know why some people seem to believe that if you do anything outside of what they're doing your WC is going to suffer.

I've pretty much given up on getting straight answers on the web in regard to this style. There just doesn't seem to be any middle ground where anyone can meet on most topics related to WC.

Hi Lugoman,

I hope your eyesight improves. You gotta watch those Kettlebells!

I can't speak for others but I can offer my thoughts on the topic. It isn't that ANY thing can hurt your wing chun, just the opposite. Not everything improves it. My comment was on the rings and flying elbows. If you train your elbows in such a manner that they tend to press outwards then you may be causing bad habits. This is important for me since I am predisposed to flying elbows. Others may not have the same issue or concerns.

As for weight training, I don't think it neither helps nor hurts your wing chun as long as it is done correctly. The caveat is that as you grow larger, you *could* cause some issues of concern. But I would tend to think those are only in isolated cases and not pertenant to most people. I think what most people tend to think about is that "strong" people tend to be preocuppied with strength. I am not sure if that is true or not as I havn't accumulated enough info. Some people argue that it isn't true. I have seen some cases where it is somewhat true. So I think it just depends, as most things. I tend to think smart weight training is not directly related to smart wing chun training.

[southernkf]

[QUOTE=donbdc;806347]Well I guess I am a radical as I use them both and love them. But as far as the ring preventing flying elbows and fwd pressure, don't you do that when you are on the dummy? If you are doing loy and noy kwan sao drills arent you applying similiar pressure?/QUOTE]

No, not at all. No flying elbows on the dummy or anywhere else, atleast that is what I try. Forward energy, sure, but I dont see how the rings help with that, which is why I asked and am currious.

As for preventing flying elbows, I believe it helps to develop muscle memory and proper bone joint allignment for the new student. A lot of training in the beggining is like learning to pat your head and rub your tummy. Complex hand movements combined w/ proper fot work is hard. If you have been doing it for a while, it is easily taken for granted. Any tool to help speed up that awkward process and allow the student to feel and thereby understand yin and yang energy coupled w/ timing and foot work is priceless.
Kettlebells anyone?

Interesting. I'll have to look more at it. What I have seen, and admittedly implied, was that it wouldn't work for the traits I am after. perhaps i need to reevaluate it. But I am still skeptical that it would give me the skills I am after. After all, I am not just interested in keeping the elbows in, but much more than that.

[donbdc]

That is exactly what I meant. No flying elbows at all, the energy is focused foward w/ a yin and yang hand creating whirlpool energy. The ring has to be small(I'll get dimensions) Hands go in opposite and just try gahn/joms w/ Choma or bracing foot work. It's just a tool to play w/. Have fun w/ it You can use all of the complex attacks or blocks. some are easier than others.
As for kettlebells vs.free weights: whatever works for you! Train hard!

[woodendumby]

Well, I might take mine out of the closet and give it a go...however I have no clue how to train with it. As I stated, my Sifu disaproves... so I won't ask him,

Anyone no of a couple good sources on how to train with them ?

[LoneTiger108]

Frankly, I'm surprised! I was expecting to be ridiculed for my fascination with the ring, but here I find some good conversations and viewpoints. With regards to decent training advice for this tool, I may just have to pen a book on the subject lol! During my time at the Gwoon, 'tools' or Equipment was my specialized area.

It has been interesting to hear talk of 'flying elbows' and even 'kettle balls' as I too have seen both and can see where you're coming from here. My main observations from the posts is that most talk of using one ring, perhaps intending to insert the hands 'into' and to practice rolling drills and sets like 'tan da' etc. I have also experimented 'plenty' here as there are numerous ideas and methods that fit this tool. I don't want to risk saying that 'all' Wing Chun techiniques can be done with the ring, as I'm sure that there's still a few I haven't tried!

My question is, has anyone used a pair? Maybe the 'meaning' of the ring lies in this question. For example, if I hold a pair I'm 'gripping' the ring in the same way as a kettleballs handle. However, instead of the weight to swing/lift etc I just have a simple ring either extending away from me or wrapped against the elbow.

One of the best 'practicalities' of all tools that are held is their immediate benefit to your 'grip strength' or as I would call it 'Fist Strength'. All I need now is for something to continually test my grip on the ring, so what do I do? I have a trained stick/pole man to attack me with 'interactive' sets and build a stamina drill from there.

Has anyone trained like this?

[donbdc]

I am really impressed! This has been a great discussion no name calling just good honest feed back. It's like we've all been to therapy or more likely the ones that need too haven't shown up yet!

[southernkf]

Yeah, imagine that. LOL. Lets keep this thread our little secret. LOL.

The funny thing is we should be able to discuss things and have different points of view. Unfortunately people take things too personal. I can see that the rings don't offer me anything based on my current understanding. Which is why I feel they probably are not really part of Yip Man wing chun training. However, that doesn't mean they aren't useful for other peoples, or that other people have found other great uses. I would love to hear how other people use them. We may disagree as to their usefulness, or whether they are needed. We may actually be able to change our minds. As I said, I am always interested in new approaches. Unfortunately many other people are not.

In any case, good discussion.

[junmo]

" I have a trained stick/pole man to attack me with 'interactive' sets and build a stamina drill from there."


Having been both said stick man and pole man in this drill, from my own experience I can only give it a positive review. Using the rings to defend your self from multiple stick attacks from all angles and ranges at near full speed worked wonders for not only my hand/eye speed co-ordination, footwork/positioning, but your fitnes level in general.

Drilling this over a period of months using all you WC shapes lifted my reactioning time and attrition rates way beyond anything I've done before. Weapons training trains all your actions to go together.

[k gledhill]

I dont want to rain on anyones parade BUT...before you go using tools, you need to know the engine your working on. The SLT is a specific tool for the purpose of elbows and wrists aligned . Once this ability is learned , we incorporate moving our line to face our attack using chum kil. this is simply turning our slt arms in rotation along our line , while turning angles to make it work so our arms dont have to leave the line , unless for gaun , bong ....
then back to elbows in while striking...simple idea.
The rings would simply hang from your arm/elbows, flying around with the energy the arms/elbows created exploding off the line and back in rotation....lin sil di da is mind focus while using the elbow positions in rotation along an invisible [ secret ] line ...when you use the rings to 'play' they will develop the wrong energy , making you try to use support force to keep them positioned ...been there saw the redundancy put it back on the bar stool
If it helps you understand why not to use it , use it ...

[donbdc]

I think there must be a misunderstanding in how the arms are fed int the ring. I don't see that at all. I would love to put together a short clip and then discuss that. This has been a good forum and these kinds of discussions can be very beneficial in understanding and learning from each other.
I really like the way you described the SLT engine and the need to really understand it and what it teaches.
Have a good one.
Don
PS
Stay off the barstools!

[LoneTiger108]

It's strange that this clip has only recently been added to my Sifu's website, so I thought that you could all be the first to see it! So many crazy memories still exist in my mind and this was a cherished time.

It is a collection of old training days at his hall in North London, and if you wait long enough you will see how we used to use a 'pair' of Rattan Rings as a pre-cursor and complimentary to the knives...

Be honest! let me know what you think!

http://www.junmo.co.uk/

[k gledhill]

Thats not VT, lets establish that this is stylized using VT hands and sold as a product by the teacher, self defence using rings that you pick up from a broken bar stool you just broke over a guys head for spilling your beer...thats where the rings came from isnt it ?
or does she carry them everywhere ?
I like the circle the wagons approach to an circling enemy carrying banners , classic enrollment / movie stuff for shows and demo's , nice one !
Im not sure whats going on at the dummy , but no dummy desreves to be gang attacked
funny video !

[YungChun]

Thats not VT, lets establish that this is stylized using VT hands and sold as a product by the teacher, self defence using rings that you pick up from a broken bar stool you just broke over a guys head for spilling your beer...thats where the rings came from isnt it ?
or does she carry them everywhere ?
I like the circle the wagons approach to an circling enemy carrying banners , classic enrollment / movie stuff for shows and demo's , nice one !
Im not sure whats going on at the dummy , but no dummy desreves to be gang attacked
funny video !

LOL

Give that man another cigar..