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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #8056
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    I address the Tai Chi statement

    T'ai Chi Ch'uan is a Taoist internal martial art. One account of the history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan credits its development to the Taoist immortal Chang San-feng, who is said to have drawn the inspiration for the art by watching a fight between an snake and an aggressive eagle. Chang San-feng was reportedly a master of Shaolin Kung Fu who reached an extraordinary level of cultivation through Taoist internal practices. Another account of the history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan is that many different Kung Fu masters developed it over a long period of time; as a synthesis of internal meditation and martial technique. Either way, the written history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan goes back about 300 years and it was not until the turn of the 20th century that it was introduced to the general public.

    There you go SS. I suggest you do your research. KC
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  2. #8057
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    ...blah blah blah blah blah ....
    It is only Logical that it had such wide impact that the Shaolin would have incorporated it as well.
    Logic doesn't say "Hua To's method were incorporated in...." anywhere. Logic is not always fact. Don't confuse the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    The Chen village is quite close to the Shaolin Temple and it is rumored the other styles came from it. The Shaolin temple teaches a Tai Chi as well thus Tai Chi is also Shaolin.
    It's 60km +/- as the crow flies. Been there... to both them... the Chen family art prior to the development was Pao Chui... a Shaolin based art. What did I say earlier that made you think I didn't make reference to it...

    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    SS the Shaolin Temples encompassed much more than you might know and though I am no scholar of the Shaolin Temples even I can see the connection. KC
    Again... did I say there was no connection between Chen Taiji & Shaolin? I don't believe I did.
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  3. #8058
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    I address the Tai Chi statement

    T'ai Chi Ch'uan is a Taoist internal martial art. One account of the history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan credits its development to the Taoist immortal Chang San-feng, who is said to have drawn the inspiration for the art by watching a fight between an snake and an aggressive eagle. Chang San-feng was reportedly a master of Shaolin Kung Fu who reached an extraordinary level of cultivation through Taoist internal practices. Another account of the history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan is that many different Kung Fu masters developed it over a long period of time; as a synthesis of internal meditation and martial technique. Either way, the written history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan goes back about 300 years and it was not until the turn of the 20th century that it was introduced to the general public.

    There you go SS. I suggest you do your research. KC

    Research on what? I don't see where you've slapped me with anything new & the reported origins of an unconfirmed source of taiji is more than just a little humorous.

    I really suggest you remove your head from the collective ostrich hole so many SD people bury themselves in & look around. I've done my research for the past "X" years & continue to do so. I've been to ground zero, met people outside the village who trained there & talked with them.
    Message: Due to the ongoing Recession, God has decided the light at the end of the tunnel will be shut off due to power costs. That is all.

  4. #8059
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkriii View Post
    He is a very smart man. He holds college dgrees in 7 different fields, he is a doctor, and a practicing pharmacist.
    Here's the question: have you seen the diplomas or tested him on his fields?

    These kinds of statements are generally bull****. Nobody in his right mind would spend the kind of money it would take to get 7 Bachelor's, and however many doctorates he needs. Plus, he'd have spent so much time in school his martial arts must surely suck.

    I took more than full-time classloads (5 of those 10 semesters working 40 hrs. w/ 20 hrs. of classes, graduating with a 3.7 GPA[ 4.0 in my subject areas]), and it still took me 5 years to get 2 degrees--going far beyond recommended classloads. So you're looking at probably, I don't know, 2 years for every other degree (since the first two years of coursework are mutually exclusive and would have been covered for his first 2 degrees in all probability. For five more Bachelor's Degrees, that's 2 years each, reaching a total of 10 years. Now, there's not a scholarship on earth that covers that kind of ridiculous achievement. I know, b/c I look for them all to diffray the costs of Grad School, and used them to diffray the costs of Undergraduate work. Not even the GI BIll or a corporate grant cover repeat degrees---there's no way to diffray those costs. So, considering it's about 2,000 dollars per semester (modest, by some standards) for tuition alone, that's 4 semesters per degree in order to graduate in 2 years with each corollary degree. That's a total of 8,000-10000 dollars per degree. So we're looking at something like 50,000 dollars for his bachelor's degrees, and that's the bare minimum at a local school--not an impressive one.

    Unless he's a trust fund baby, this kind of money is hard to come by.

    (I know you might not think so.....50K over a decade....but it's not just a payment of money. It costs a lot of time. This necessitates freedom of schedule).

    First, you have to have the kind of job that will allow you to schedule classes in the afternoon. We're assuming he did this in 10 years. Night school would double that timespan, because you can only take a couple of classes. Now, I work 2 jobs, 7 days a week. I'm at work M-F from 4am to a little past noon. Then I drive down to GSU and I'm at school from 1pm-5:15 pm for 2 grad classes (one TUES/THURS). Then I drive up to Marietta to study martial arts for a couple of hours from 5:30 until about 9 or so. When I'm done, I go home and sleep. I study on M/W/F afternoons, and take naps. EAch night, I find some way to practice MA, whether at school or at home. On weekends, I either work 4am-4pm or 8am-4pm. This gives me barely enough money to afford grad school, MA, rent, my cheap truck, insurance for my cheap truck, a girlfriend (note, the little time [perhaps money] I have outside these activities is usually spent by her)......

    I'm a hard worker, but I can't see myself keeping this up for more than another year. So, we're saying your teacher is working a fantastic job with flexible hours and great pay, with unlimited funding for his studies, and probably no female friend. He's practically a monk.

    Besides. I got my degrees in English and Art. But I can pick up any physics or math textbook and teach myself without the aid of a teacher. Your teacher has committed the college phallusy (fallacy): he's sought achievement not for mental acuity, but for pieces of paper that declare his masculine prowess.

    Now, he followed one of them through to a doctorate. Grad school=2 years if you rush through it. I'm rushing through mine, to get done in a year and a half. It's 2,000 dollars per semester for 2 classes. You have to take a total of nine. The coursework is so intensive, that 2 classes keeps you busier than any combination of the 5-6 classes I took as an undergrad. The papers are monumental, and you have to develop your thesis. By this time in my studies, I'm very well educated in English Literature, Victorian studies, and philosophy/history/lit of the Enlightenment. After the in depth analysis I've gotten through my higher level studies, would I ever spend 2,000 dollars per semester in order to re-enter an undergraduate level and receive basic instruction with students not as pledged or interested in the material as I am? Unless it's at Oxford or something, I wouldn't. Not as anything but an instructor......LOL.....

    I guess what I'm saying is that this kind of dubious achievement is really tantamount to taking a frying pan and beating yourself over the head. Don't fall for it, b/c you're getting suckered.

    BTW, turning back towards SD, away from MRKIII's super-genius-martial-guru, why GM The' would want to learn 7 languages when his English could use some work, go figure......LOL....but now I'm just trolling.
    Last edited by Shaolin Wookie; 10-20-2007 at 06:08 AM.

  5. #8060
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    Just ask JP---would you go back for 6 more degrees after having followed law through to a completion?

    The money,
    The time,
    The money,
    The stress,
    The money............


    (And this dude's talking $$$$MEDICAL$$$ school......LOL)

  6. #8061
    cjurakpt Guest

    2 pages to go!

    wow - it's gonna hit 500, it really, really is!!!

  7. #8062
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    Interesting reading history Shaolin

    THis could explain why SD is different than what we see today as "Shaolin"

    During the Sung dynasty, Shaolin also heavily taught long staff routines, partly because they caused less bloodshed than swords, spears and knives. Chan Shi founded the Liu Ho Quan (Six Harmonies Boxing) style based on Shaolin techniques. Also, in 1103AD, a famous general, Yui Fei, brought his soldiers to Shaolin to exchange techniques. He also invented his own forms of boxing, such as Yue San Shou and Yu Chia Quan, Eagle Claw, Nine Way Mandarin Duck Continuous Kicks, among others. It is also during the Sung period that the Xing I (mind boxing) style was invented by combining the Taoist five elements theory with 12 animal-imitating boxing techniques and Shaolin soon taught their own versions of all these routines.
    Sometimes during the Sung dynasty, secret societies began to be formed, such as the White Lotus of North and West China. Members began to frequent the Shaolin temple and used its cover for clandestine operations. Such people helped to make martial arts flourish at Shaolin. Many styles of Shaolin-derived boxing were soon developed through Northern China as non-monks who studied at Shaolin left and travelled, sharing what they learned, and developing their own routines and styles (such as Mi-Tsung, Tung Bei, Duan Quan, Duan Dah, and Pao Choi). During the Sung period, Fu Ju, then Abbot of Shaolin, invited experts in 18 martial arts schools to exchange skills with those of Shaolin They stayed three years and wrote the Shaolin Boxing Manual, describing 280 routines (this manual helped Emperor Sun Tai Zu thoroughly master what he had learned at Shaolin).


    By the later Sung period, various warlords endangered the countryside and they fought the Sung Emperor for power. In 1279, in the midst of China's inner quarrels, the Mongols invaded China and started the Yuan dynasty, which lasted until 1368AD. To cope with the dangerous times, Shaolin fighting techniques became more of a hard style that primarily used speed, aggressiveness and power, It began to emphasize economy of technique and promoted defence through first strike offence power blows. It was extremely effective for its time, but it was not as subtle as earlier Shaolin Quan. Also, it was not as perfected as later versions of Shaolin Quan; it did not resemble modern Shaolin Kung fu neither in execution nor in philosophy. During the thirteenth century, this type of Shaolin boxing that the monks developed exemplified early kung fu. About 300 forms (170 empty hand and 130 weapons routines) were developed from the original 18 Lohan form. The well-known Shaolin Jin Gang style was developed at this time seeking to preserve the original elements of Shaolin Quan.
    After violent nationalist revolts, the Mongols were defeated; Chu Yuan Chan, a Buddhist monk, founded the beloved Ming dynasty, which lasted from 1368-1644AD. During this time, many changes occurred in Shaolin's fighting methods, altering its course for the better. By the Ming dynasty, Shaolin style kung fu was based on techniques embedded in the 18 Lohan styles and forms. But, its execution over the past two centuries had lost its softer, internal properties as it constantly mixed with outsiders and became entwined with military politics. (The Shoalin monks also collected outside styles and routines and taught these there as well). Thus, Shaolin Quan Fa had become less fluid and circular and more rigid and linear, relying on feats of strength and body conditioning for results. It started to be reliant on brute strength, losing its original grace and agility.
    KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  8. #8063
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    Observations from the SD detractors?

    Here's what I want to know:

    Do you guys consider SD material to be basic or complicated at a fundamental level?

    I've been toying with my long staff form, 2 bo-length forms, the cane form, and sections of a spear form---there's a lot of complicated stuff going on in those forms--tons of techniques......perhaps more than I see going on in most CMA forms. There are constant grip changes, variations on spins, parries, etc.....but then I see certain CMA forms, and it's basically shaking a stick around, slapping the ground, striking a pose......

    What's your opinions? I notice this a lot in CMA weapons forms-especially staff ones. They're often more impressive looking than they are useful looking. One of my favorite CMA staff routines is the usual Monkey King one----but it's basically just imitating a monkey, spinning a staff, posing on the staff, rolling on the ground---but no techniques at all--just flair.

    Your observations?

  9. #8064
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    LOL at KC's cut-and-paste fu.

    How about you also link to the source site? Sounds like some self-promoting history there

    From the 8th to the 15th centuries, no extant source documents Shaolin participation in combat; then suddenly, the 16th and 17th centuries see at least forty extant sources attest that, not only did monks of Shaolin practice martial arts, but martial practice had become such an integral element of Shaolin monastic life that the monks felt the need to justify it by creating new Buddhist lore.[4]References to Shaolin martial arts appear in various literary genres of the late Ming: the epitaphs of Shaolin warrior monks, martial-arts manuals, military encyclopedias, historical writings, travelogues, fiction, and even poetry.[4]

    These sources, in contrast to those from the Tang Dynasty period, refer to Shaolin methods of combat unarmed, with the spear, and with the weapon that was the forte of the Shaolin monks and for which they had become famous—the staff.[4][3] By the mid-16th century military experts from all over Ming China were travelling to Shaolin to study its fighting techniques.

    Around 1560 Yú Dàyóu travelled to Shaolin Monastery to see for himself its monks' fighting techniques, but found them disappointing. Yú returned to the south with two monks, Zongqing and Pucong, whom he taught the use of the staff over the next three years, after which Zongqing and Pucong returned to Shaolin Monastery and taught their brother monks what they had learned. Martial arts historian Tang Hao traced the Shaolin staff style Five Tigers Interception to Yú's teachings.

    The earliest extant manual on Shaolin Kung Fu, the Exposition of the Original Shaolin Staff Method[14] was written around 1610 and published in 1621 from what its author Chéng Zōngyóu learned during a more than ten year stay at the monastery.

    Conditions of lawlessness in Henan—where the Shaolin Monastery is located—and surrounding provinces during the late Ming Dynasty and all of the Qing Dynasty contributed to the development of martial arts. Meir Shahar lists the martial arts T'ai Chi Ch'üan, Chang Family Boxing, Bāguàquán, Xíngyìquán and Bājíquán as originating from this region and this time period.[4]

    Perhaps, even more telling....

    Ever since 1669, when Huang Zongxi first described Chinese martial arts in terms of a Shaolin or "external" school versus a Wudang or "internal" school,[1] "Shaolin" has been used as a synonym for "external" Chinese martial arts regardless of whether or not the particular style in question has any connection to the Shaolin Monastery. In 1784 the Boxing Classic: Essential Boxing Methods[2] made the earliest extant reference to the Shaolin Monastery as Chinese boxing's place of origin.[3]

    Since the beginning of the 17th century, the Shaolin Monastery garnered such fame that many martial artists have capitalized on its name by claiming possession of the original, authentic Shaolin teachings.[4]
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 10-20-2007 at 07:11 AM.

  10. #8065
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    I will try to find it for you I did not cut and paste it was written that way it just sort of caught my attention as it addressed the different form thing everyone talks about. Coming soon. if I find it. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  11. #8066
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    A Fool is Born every Day !

  12. #8067
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    THis could explain why SD is different than what we see today as "Shaolin"

    During the Sung dynasty, Shaolin also heavily taught long staff routines, partly because they caused less bloodshed than swords, spears and knives. Chan Shi founded the Liu Ho Quan (Six Harmonies Boxing) style based on Shaolin techniques. Also, in 1103AD, a famous general, Yui Fei, brought his soldiers to Shaolin to exchange techniques. He also invented his own forms of boxing, such as Yue San Shou and Yu Chia Quan, Eagle Claw, Nine Way Mandarin Duck Continuous Kicks, among others. It is also during the Sung period that the Xing I (mind boxing) style was invented by combining the Taoist five elements theory with 12 animal-imitating boxing techniques and Shaolin soon taught their own versions of all these routines.
    Sometimes during the Sung dynasty, secret societies began to be formed, such as the White Lotus of North and West China. Members began to frequent the Shaolin temple and used its cover for clandestine operations. Such people helped to make martial arts flourish at Shaolin. Many styles of Shaolin-derived boxing were soon developed through Northern China as non-monks who studied at Shaolin left and travelled, sharing what they learned, and developing their own routines and styles (such as Mi-Tsung, Tung Bei, Duan Quan, Duan Dah, and Pao Choi). During the Sung period, Fu Ju, then Abbot of Shaolin, invited experts in 18 martial arts schools to exchange skills with those of Shaolin They stayed three years and wrote the Shaolin Boxing Manual, describing 280 routines (this manual helped Emperor Sun Tai Zu thoroughly master what he had learned at Shaolin).


    By the later Sung period, various warlords endangered the countryside and they fought the Sung Emperor for power. In 1279, in the midst of China's inner quarrels, the Mongols invaded China and started the Yuan dynasty, which lasted until 1368AD. To cope with the dangerous times, Shaolin fighting techniques became more of a hard style that primarily used speed, aggressiveness and power, It began to emphasize economy of technique and promoted defence through first strike offence power blows. It was extremely effective for its time, but it was not as subtle as earlier Shaolin Quan. Also, it was not as perfected as later versions of Shaolin Quan; it did not resemble modern Shaolin Kung fu neither in execution nor in philosophy. During the thirteenth century, this type of Shaolin boxing that the monks developed exemplified early kung fu. About 300 forms (170 empty hand and 130 weapons routines) were developed from the original 18 Lohan form. The well-known Shaolin Jin Gang style was developed at this time seeking to preserve the original elements of Shaolin Quan.
    After violent nationalist revolts, the Mongols were defeated; Chu Yuan Chan, a Buddhist monk, founded the beloved Ming dynasty, which lasted from 1368-1644AD. During this time, many changes occurred in Shaolin's fighting methods, altering its course for the better. By the Ming dynasty, Shaolin style kung fu was based on techniques embedded in the 18 Lohan styles and forms. But, its execution over the past two centuries had lost its softer, internal properties as it constantly mixed with outsiders and became entwined with military politics. (The Shoalin monks also collected outside styles and routines and taught these there as well). Thus, Shaolin Quan Fa had become less fluid and circular and more rigid and linear, relying on feats of strength and body conditioning for results. It started to be reliant on brute strength, losing its original grace and agility.

    There are other fairy tales out there such as you forgot to mention the hero's of the marsh.

  13. #8068
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    http://www.shaolin-society.co.uk/Ins.../associate.php

    JONIN Sato Nwemesu (look at pic)

    Um, KC, I think you're getting your history from John Takeshi/Mega-Foot.


    Man, Equestrian Tai Chi does sound interesting, doesn't it?

    Seriously though, he makes a point about the horse stance--leg strength = stability on horseback/ground. Makes you think about how your horse stances occur on the ground in weapons forms, and how they might have functioned as horseback techniques.
    Last edited by Shaolin Wookie; 10-20-2007 at 07:24 AM.

  14. #8069
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    No kidding.

    Pick your resources better, bro.

  15. #8070
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    You've got to be kidding?!?!?!?!!?!

    You're quoting from a "resource" that has a ninja "jonin"... oh Christ please. Jonin... that's an antiquated term that has no credibility in JMA.

    Please... keep picking sources like that. It shows exactly how far in the ground your head is.
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