Terminologies, methods, theories & maxims

[southernkf]

Lonetiger

In the USA, most Kuen Kuit are from the H.K Clan. The 2 men that spread the Kuen Kuit before ANYONE did to non Asians, were Moy Yat and Augustine Fong. Hands down. I havnt seen many lists, that dont include their material. I have done my best to figure out what came from who and give them the credit they deserve. I always respected and appreciated both of the above mentioned WCK masters for there forecoming nature in breaking down racial barriers, with really Open hearts. While others complained about this was differant or that was differant to how i "do it" , Fong Sifu was the first to put the entire system down on vid and book, to my knowledge, and open many up to their first look at Biu Tze.

B

ahhh, I am not sure I agree with that statement at all. I think what your saying is that most public lists may be from these people. I think Curt James was one of the first to post on the net and his material may have been included by many. However, I think you will find many people in a direct lineage and access to their direct seniors have lists. Maybe I am overstepping what I actuall know. Let me rephrase, there are a atleast a few others that have kuen kuits. My lineage has kuen kuits and they are somewhat different than some of the others out there.

My question would be, what is the significance of these? I get the idea they wern't formally taught, but were probably sayings that kept getting repeated in class.

[Vajramusti]

I think Curt James was one of the first to post on the net and his material may have been included by many(southern KF)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James was an ex student of Fong- and James' list was a reproduction of the Fong collection
which was already published in a book by Fong with Chinese lettering and translation from Chinese..The book sold out right away and is out of print. Dan Lucas's site later on carried the
James list.

Moy Yat's collection was smaller. It appeared in a small book and also in his stone carvings.
The kuen kuit are martial songs and the meanings can vary with levels of understanding.
The taichi songs are an older published list and also has a parallel characteristic of the requirement of some tacit knowledge of the relevant art.

Guideposts along the way.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

IMO-The kuit is/are no substitute for direct hands on instruction, good practice and experience.

joy chaudhuri

[t_niehoff]

your wife wasnt laughing when i unleashed my "secret coded tounge" on her j/k

How old are you? 12? 13?

[k gledhill]

back to the discussion...VT is a freefighting art , problem being many dont see a simple line of attack, unbroken in its delivery, rather "training stages" and basic's done so often nobody see'e the 'goal' of a continous, unrelenting aggressive attack ...or how to maintain it through hand techniques developed in chi-sao...a lot of the stuff being taught is now 'stylized' by the 'teacher' and sold as his product 'take it or leave it ' oh and heres the video series for $49.99 or 3 easy payments of.......self defense stuff using VT....abstracted so far off the line it no longer has any fighting value....just lost in rolling hands, stick 2,3,4 and trap and hit ..lovely again ............
... and dont forget the maxims ....you understand what they mean to freefighting dont you ? dont you ?

[t_niehoff]

Guideposts along the way.

Not so much guideposts as points-of-inquiry (things to reflect on in your practice).

Kuit are poetic expressions, and their meaning is not clear but open to many possible (theoretical) interpretations. Nor is the context of the kuit specified (when, where it "applies"). Etc.

IME I think many people believe the kuit, the terminology, etc. will "help" their WCK development in that these things will "point the way", the guidepost analogy. I think that view is utterly mistaken. Like most things in WCK, our understanding (and the understanding of our instructor) will depend on and come from our (their) performance (skill) level -- not that our skill level will depend on and come from our understanding (of these things). There is no objective, right way of knowing whether our interpretation is sound (let alone "correct" or the "intended" one) except through performance results. And, only through experience, through the doing of WCK, can we begin to really appreciate what it is the kuit is trying to say.

[k gledhill]

better to know than guess .... like the game chinese whispers, after the 10th attempt to pass on a simple idea , it becomes far from that

When you drink water , you will always think of the source.

[LoneTiger108]

I have enjoyed this post, even some of the 'coded tongue' jokes still haven't distracted most of us from the actual discussion here. I would like to mention that, as far as I'm aware, most Kuit I have learnt comes from the verbal teachings of my Sifu. He had written them down as 'instructions', not as advice (although he had plenty of that! lol!).

For example, starting with a line system, each line has an accompanying 'image' or simple movement that can be practised in all areas. The general 'advice' (kuen kuit) is given during training, but what I'm referring to with 'Hao Kuit' is the way in which the days training was written down by the Sifu, rather like a menu or a program and then dictated to students openly.

My Sifu used to come into a class with a page of text and sit everyone down and say 'this is whats on the menu for today!'. Our notes on his chats were our individual interpretations, but if any of us strayed too far he could always use his lines to get us back on track.

Does any of this make sense or seem familiar to anyone else?

[YungChun]

Not so much guideposts as points-of-inquiry (things to reflect on in your practice).

Kuit are poetic expressions, and their meaning is not clear but open to many possible (theoretical) interpretations. Nor is the context of the kuit specified (when, where it "applies"). Etc.

IME I think many people believe the kuit, the terminology, etc. will "help" their WCK development in that these things will "point the way", the guidepost analogy. I think that view is utterly mistaken. Like most things in WCK, our understanding (and the understanding of our instructor) will depend on and come from our (their) performance (skill) level -- not that our skill level will depend on and come from our understanding (of these things). There is no objective, right way of knowing whether our interpretation is sound (let alone "correct" or the "intended" one) except through performance results. And, only through experience, through the doing of WCK, can we begin to really appreciate what it is the kuit is trying to say.

So you can't know what the KK are unless you fight, but if you fight without knowing the KK or any WCK concepts they how will you know you are doing WCK--which is defined by it's tools and tactics.

One does not enter into playing basketball without knowing what the object of the game is.. One does not play on a team without knowing what the strategies will be.. First strategy must be chosen and explained and then put into action/drilling/application... Clearly many don't get what WCK's strategy truly is or how important the correct process is..

Through application one may then improve the expression of the tactics but one cannot begin to improve tactics that one knows not—hence the progression the tactics and tools must first be learned and then applied, rinse repeat..

Moreover, a boxer having learned how to box will not stop hitting the bag and drilling once he begins sparring.. He will cycle his training drilling/sparring/drilling/sparring in order to improve his strengths and fix errors or weak spots, through critical analysis of course.. .

[YungChun]

back to the discussion...VT is a freefighting art , problem being many dont see a simple line of attack, unbroken in its delivery, rather "training stages" and basic's done so often nobody see'e the 'goal' of a continous, unrelenting aggressive attack ...or how to maintain it through hand techniques developed in chi-sao...a lot of the stuff being taught is now 'stylized' by the 'teacher' and sold as his product 'take it or leave it ' oh and heres the video series for $49.99 or 3 easy payments of.......self defense stuff using VT....abstracted so far off the line it no longer has any fighting value....just lost in rolling hands, stick 2,3,4 and trap and hit ..lovely again ............
... and dont forget the maxims ....you understand what they mean to freefighting dont you ? dont you ?

Good stuff..

I know Kevin 'gets it'--we are on the same page bro...

[t_niehoff]

So you can't know what the KK are unless you fight, but if you fight without knowing the KK or any WCK concepts they how will you know you are doing WCK--which is defined by it's tools and tactics.

There is a distinction between "knowing" the KK (or anything in WCK)and "understanding" the KK (or anything in WCK). My point is that you can learn the KK, but your understanding of it will correspond to your performance level (how well you can do it). As you get better, your understanding will change. This is why we shouldn't look at these things as "written in stone" (although Moy Yat did write them in stone!), but as dynamic. How we look at them, how we understand them, etc. will change over time.

One does not enter into playing basketball without knowing what the object of the game is.. One does not play on a team without knowing what the strategies will be.. First strategy must be chosen and explained and then put into action/drilling/application... Clearly many don't get what WCK's strategy truly is or how important the correct process is..

I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying that a beginner will have a beginner's understanding of these things. As their skill level grows, so will their understanding of these things. It is the experience, that process of skill development, that shapes, modifies, and changes our appreciation and understanding of these things. Andwemay see that our beginner's view was very, very different than our view further on down the road.

Through application one may then improve the expression of the tactics but one cannot begin to improve tactics that one knows not—hence the progression the tactics and tools must first be learned and then applied, rinse repeat..

As I see it, certain specific tactics/tools are to solve certain combative problems. I think it is the wrong approach to learn the tools/tactic and then try to use them. That will most likely fail. Because there are lots and lots of combative problems, and you are trying to take something narrow and use it generally. This is one reason we see WCK people who can't use most of their tactics/tools (other than the Caveman). They've never learned when/where to really use their tactics/tools. It's better IME to begin with the (realistic) combative problem and learn the specific tactic/tool to solve it -- or just figure it out. Only then repeat.

Moreover, a boxer having learned how to box will not stop hitting the bag and drilling once he begins sparring.. He will cycle his training drilling/sparring/drilling/sparring in order to improve his strengths and fix errors or weak spots, through critical analysis of course.. .

There is conditioning work (hitting the bag), drilling (which is realistic and alive),and sparring (which is realistic drilling). The only difference between sparring and drilling is that drilling takes "snippets" of sparring and repeats them, so that the trainee gets more repetitions.

[YungChun]

As I see it, certain specific tactics/tools are to solve certain combative problems. I think it is the wrong approach to learn the tools/tactic and then try to use them.

All is energy and position and/or interruptions of the flow of our power IMO..

It’s impossible to discuss tactics or training with you because you reveal nothing of what you do/use/advoate technically within what you call your WCK.

[LoneTiger108]

My Sifu used to come into a class with a page of text and sit everyone down and say 'this is whats on the menu for today!'. Our notes on his chats were our individual interpretations, but if any of us strayed too far he could always use his lines to get us back on track.

Does any of this make sense or seem familiar to anyone else?

Why are the simple questions always ignored??

I think the discussion is not really developing how I thought it would, again, as I see too many people concerned with the Kuen Kuit that has been publically seen. I know that most of you will just be either bored of it all and can not see its relevence, or some may feel inspired to actually have some evidence of past practitioners thoughts (especially Moy Yats collection, which is priceless! IMO)

Can you not see that I'm asking if any of you have had a similar experience to me with regards to being taught lines of text that not only have a physical 'shape' or motion, but a mental 'objective' and 'theory'. I'm not talking of 'Hints & Tips' here, like so many of the KK are known to do, I'm talking of simple training programs and curriculae that are actually 'written in Chinese' and taught in that manner regardless.

Maybe this link will help (or maybe not!)

http://www.theyumyeurngacademy.co.uk...oundation.html

The text highlights 8 Concepts (4 characters each), which all have a physical shape and purpose. This is generally used to create a good foundation knowledge of how we teach and can be built on. Knowing how to 'read' it is just one of the requirements for our Apprenticeships, actually training it is an experience in itself we offer to everyone...

[YungChun]

Can you not see that I'm asking if any of you have had a similar experience to me with regards to being taught lines of text that not only have a physical 'shape' or motion, but a mental 'objective' and 'theory'.

Yes, and no..

In my old days at my school the nature of study was more 1 on 1 in terms of seniors or higher level folks working with younger level folks and doing so hands on and/or working on specific things.. Students would then go off and work on those things on their own later, rinse repeat.. Organized class structure was rarely seen but did happen now and then.. Each person is really at his own level due to differences in understanding and ability, therefore each person's 'lesson' is his own..

[LoneTiger108]

Yes, and no..

In my old days at my school the nature of study was more 1 on 1 in terms of seniors or higher level folks working with younger level folks and doing so hands on and/or working on specific things.. Students would then go off and work on those things on their own later, rinse repeat.. Organized class structure was rarely seen but did happen now and then.. Each person is really at his own level due to differences in understanding and ability, therefore each person's 'lesson' is his own..

I totally agree with you here. My tuition was very personalized, but I must say that 'everybody' in the school at that time had this opportunity. We used to refer to an individuals 'kung fu' would decide how much or little was 'taken in' by mind and body. I was very fortunate to put in some serious time, so I feel I benefitted greatly.

I have grown with time away too, and I still feel like a beginner sometimes (especially here! lol!) as I know there are many families and interpretations out there. There may be hundreds, if not more, like me in the UK as I myself shared time with as many as that. If they didn't catch it, that was never my responsibility.

Yes and no? Does this mean any curriculae you used were mainly in English?