Forms or Not Forms

[Tai-Lik]

I appreciate the concept you are trying to convey - there is a difference between being a fighter (doing what works for YOU) and being a teacher (knowing a whole curriculum well enough to pass it on, even the things you don't do well)

However, I don't believe that you need forms to do this....

Good point LKFMDC and I agree that forms are not necessary to be good fighter. I believe that forms training done correctly is just one of many training tools.
There are of course many ways to train fighters. For example, i use the parallel bag for training and others may not, but this doesn't mean that the parallel bag is a bad training tool. If your own preference in teaching and training.

The analogy i previously used related more to the traditional way techniques were passed on.

I think the answer to the question "Forms or Not Forms?" is that it is up to you.

If you look at it logically, forms training can be good or bad depending on the form, teacher, and student. Other forms of martial arts having training methods i don't use, but i don't consider their method wrong.

[ToraDojoNJ]

Jiu Jutsu, aikido, judo uses waza, not kata.

In fact, some jujutsu systems do indeed use kata and judo definitely does.
The emphasis of the arts is placed on application but kata (forms) is used to
teach basics and counter waza (techniques).

Form should reflect function, in fact function should be the benchmark of form.
If you don't apply the form ever then your form loses touch and your just dancing.
Form is function and function should be based on form. The two shouldn't be mutually exclusive but interdependent, one keeping in check the other.

[lkfmdc]

Forms had a time and a place in China when a sifu had only a select few students, it was a way to make them drill movement (not just technique) over and over again, especially when they didn't have a lot of students so there wasn't always a partner around to work things

In my own case, in my youth I was a "kung fu bum" and spent an unusual amount of time doing it. I was in the Duk Chan Mo Gwoon in the wee hours of the morning the day before my college chemistry finals

I feel for me, the many years I did forms taught me certain moves in my "muscle memory", learning forms from CTS also taught me to be a "mimic" and I can copy a lot of movement/technique from just watching it once or twice

I still feel the forms had movements which were/are impractical, and that my time might have been better spent in other ways

When I think of my students, who spent a fraction of the time I spent training, I can not justify forms ....

That's my opinion

[Sal Canzonieri]

Right.

I think we should pretty much all be on the same page of: Forms are not required to be good at martial arts, nor to learn a style of martial arts that may include forms.

The individual techniques can be broken down out of the forms and drilled alive.

Hell you could take a form, take just 4 techniques from it, drill the hell out of them correctly, and most likely have a better fighter than the person who just practiced the whole from for the same amount of time.

I don't agree, a person who just did one form over and over and knew it like the back of his hand and did it completely correctly and understands the fundamentals and core body mechanics will still be able to cream you as much as some one who just drilled a few moves.

BUT, only if they understand and can do the form right, and understand that CMA movements are simultaneously offensive and defensive and can be applied to any situation.

I am 100% confident that 90% of you people arguing against forms do not really know how to do them or use them or really even understand CMA applications or even CMA much at all.
I guarantee that if I had a one on one discussion and showed you things, you never were taught them and you never realized them before.
Guaranteed.

[lkfmdc]

I am 100% confident that 90% of you people arguing against forms do not really know how to do them or use them or really even understand CMA applications or even CMA much at all.
I guarantee that if I had a one on one discussion and showed you things, you never were taught them and you never realized them before.
Guaranteed.

pssssttttt

and they talk about ME

[mambi]

and thus, the genius of Martial Arts.

[Lucas]

I don't agree, a person who just did one form over and over and knew it like the back of his hand and did it completely correctly and understands the fundamentals and core body mechanics will still be able to cream you as much as some one who just drilled a few moves.

BUT, only if they understand and can do the form right, and understand that CMA movements are simultaneously offensive and defensive and can be applied to any situation.

I am 100% confident that 90% of you people arguing against forms do not really know how to do them or use them or really even understand CMA applications or even CMA much at all.
I guarantee that if I had a one on one discussion and showed you things, you never were taught them and you never realized them before.
Guaranteed.

I suppose the situation I posed would soley be dependant on the amount of time.

Give someone 4 techniques from a form, and 1 month to drill. Give another guy the whole form and 1 month to drill.

Now give the same situation 10 years. Of course the guy with only 4 techniques will plateu at somewhat of a rapid pace, while the person with the whole form as A LOT of material to deal with.

And for the record, I dont argue for or against form. I DO train form, Every day. I merely discuss.

I am a firm believer that form does have its place, but I am also a firm believer that you dont need it.

It is just one tool I choose to utilize in my personal training.

There are many fighters out there who never touched a form that could cream me, and some I could cream.

[Tai-Lik]

Lucas wrote:

I am a firm believer that form does have its place, but I am also a firm believer that you dont need it.

It is just one tool I choose to utilize in my personal training.

Excellent

[TenTigers]

Forms are like dinner menus with numerous dishes to choose from. Some dishes on the menu suit some people more than others. With so many choices on the menu, you must find which dishes suit you. Once you've found your favorite dishes, you should then pass the menu along to someone else so that they can choose their favorite dishes from the menu. If you don't pass along the menu and only tell people what you like, then you are discarding many dishes that may suit others more than you. By maintaining a menu you preserve and pass along many tasty dishes for people to choose from.

That's funny. I was going to basically say the same thing, only with different iice cream varieties, and then you posted yours. I guess it's around dinner time!

[Tai-Lik]

Forms are like dinner menus with numerous dishes to choose from. Some dishes on the menu suit some people more than others. With so many choices on the menu, you must find which dishes suit you. Once you've found your favorite dishes, you should then pass the menu along to someone else so that they can choose their favorite dishes from the menu. If you don't pass along the menu and only tell people what you like, then you are discarding many dishes that may suit others more than you. By maintaining a menu you preserve and pass along many tasty dishes for people to choose from.

Additionally, if you find a dish that you think is okay, but you feel it could taste even better, it's up to you to decide or find spices and seasonings needed to improve its' taste. Most Italian restaurants have Chicken parmesean, but each restaurant fixes it alittle bit differently. Just don't take out the chicken because then it's no longer Chicken parmesean.

btw, form training is only one tool of many that can be used for training. it is not required to be a good fighter, but still a good training for some, who train forms correctly.

[unkokusai]

I am 100% confident that 90% of you people arguing against forms do not really know how to do them or use them or really even understand CMA applications or even CMA much at all.
I guarantee that if I had a one on one discussion and showed you things, you never were taught them and you never realized them before.
Guaranteed.

LOL! Funny stuff!

[Sal Canzonieri]

LOL! Funny stuff!

I can say it because I am confident that most people today (not all of course and maybe not most people here ) have had lousy training and only learned a small piece of what TCMA is about.

It's not meant to sound arrogant, just an observations of a sad fact, the average person learning KF only learned a shadow of their art.

[Sal Canzonieri]

pssssttttt

and they talk about ME

Well, you of all people especially know that I am right, you've had vast quality training, you know what I said is true. You can be sure that people weren't told the finer points, the details that make all the difference in the world.

I'm not saying that I am great, just that one can be sure that a fraction of the details is ever taught nowadays. For whatever reasons.

The old timers told me that teachers did that to keep you always below them and in need of more lessons, IF these teachers even knew the details themselves.

[MasterKiller]

The old timers told me that teachers did that to keep you always below them and in need of more lessons, IF these teachers even knew the details themselves.

So these old timers were probably 'kept below' their teachers...and their teachers were 'kept below' their teachers...and so on.

Apparently, 723 years or so ago, one Chinese guy was pretty @ss. Since then, no one has quite measured up.

Am I following you correctly?

[bawang]

do a lot of teachers in north america still teach traditional "conditioning"?