"Fantasy-base" martial arts

[jesper]

There are lots of imaginative people running round in the world.

I have personally found stilletoes and small caliber guns disguesed as ballpens.
Once I was almost shot by a fake cellphone which turned out to have 3 oneshot barrels inside.

As to wether razors are used as described. I have no clue but if it is indeed used in jails. then it would stand to reason that the same persons would also use it outside as they will then be familiar with that type of weapon. Being the smartest thing or not. Personally I think its a dumb**** method, and I agree with monji and KF that your more likely to hurt yourself then others.

[Knifefighter]

Why does it not surprise me that a bunch of WC guys buy into the fantasy of people walking around with razor blades in their mouths. Tell ya what... try walking around like that for a few days like that and let me know how it works out for you.

I guess fighting with razor blades in your mouth would be the WC way of fighting with edged weapons. There are much more efficient ways, like using a couple of Benchmade or Spyderco tactical folders, but you know those WC guys- always trying to find the stupid way.

[imperialtaichi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwQJRqlgq1I

Thanks Phil, that's a good one. I don't know about this so next time I come to NYC I'd know . It might actually be a good idea to start a thread somewhere so that we can all share the "nasties" that we have heard of or encountered so we could better prepare for the reality of confrontations.

The thing is, because most of the contributors in the forum are law abiding citizens, we very often do not think of all the nasty surprises we could get when we are faced with life threatening situations. I do believe "real" martial art training, not "sport" martial art training, helps. Because in real MA training, we learn not only just the fighting applications, but the whole philosophy of life preservation and how to avoid confrontations. Real martial arts evolved from survival, and I am sure in the old days people are just as nastie if not more.

I don't believe in being a hero. Sure, there are times when we have no choice but to fight, but I have yet to see a real fight that only the loser(s) gets injured and the victor(s) gets out without a scratch. As long as we get sucked into the process, it is just a matter of who is losing more.

So my motto is, walk away whenever possible. You just do not know what the other guy has up his sleeves. And if we do have to fight, use all the strategy and enviroment to keep the confrontation to the minimum. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Seeing Phils' post consolidates my view.

Live long and properous and you'd be the ultimate winner!

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

As to wether razors are used as described. I have no clue but if it is indeed used in jails. then it would stand to reason that the same persons would also use it outside as they will then be familiar with that type of weapon. Being the smartest thing or not. Personally I think its a dumb**** method...

Well I think it is dumb too... There are many dumb things that people do. I wouldn't do it, but the may be there's someone out there who might just be dumb enough to do it.

Cheers,
John

[anerlich]

Dumbness is no barrier to success.

George W Bush.

I rest my case.

[monji112000]

Sorry to break this to you, but for 99.9% of human history, being chubby was the exception rather than the rule. Humans have evolved having had access to relatively small amounts of food. That's one of the reasons we don't do so well being overweight.

Obese and a little fat are two completely different things. I have a family of doctors and we have talked about this many times. I am in shape for someone like myself, yet I still have a small belly. my cardio is ok, nothing too hot.. but not bad. (if it wasn't for my inability to breath through my nose). Being "cut" and being healthy aren't the same thing. I am sure that if you looked at how people were eating in history a large percentage isn't going to be healthy. You can be skinny and not be healthy just like you can be too fat. I used to know a Samoan who was pretty healthy yet still fat by most people standards.
any way people who look like
http://www.skinz.org/celebrity/paris...allpaper-6.jpg
are string beans. Who would want bones poking them? unless your into pain...
the only thing i want to do when I see her is get some fried chicken.

[Phil Redmond]

NY is a crowded city where there is more pedestrian traffic the cars.People are in close quarters on subways, streets, elevators. etc. So I can see why people who live in areas where they drive to the store instead of walk can't understand the dynamics of the city. For one thing people don't walk around with razors in their mouths all the time. But you never know if someone had a beef with someone and happened to have the razor just in case they ran into them or was out looking for trouble.
A streetwise person wouldn't dismiss any possible threat as fantasty.

[KPM]

Terence wrote:
Why is it useful to learn movements, actions, techniques, etc. in a way that we won't really use them? Do you see that when this happens you are not really learning or developing a skill? Because a skill is our ability to perform a task (what you will do in fighting), to do a certain thing. And you are not learning or developing that. You are learning and "developing"something else

---I think they are developing an "attribute" rather than a direct application skill. The attribute developed may be timing, rhythm, flow, contact sensitivity, etc. The flow drills of Kali, like WCK Chi Sao, build attributes that then come out in application. They are also a way to put in lots of repetitions of certain motions in a short amount of time in order to "burn" them into muscle memory. They are somewhat like a boxer working the speed bag. He doesn't punch the bag in the same way that he punches the opponent. He trains on the speed bag to develop attributes such as speed, rhythm and timing.

[KPM]

Any non-optimal, counter productive "energy development" drills that these guys are doing are overriden by the more realistic drills and actual fighting they are doing. They are able to use their stuff in spite of any traditional drills, not because of them.

---If they are counter-productive, why would they still do them? As far as being able to do stuff "in spite of any traditional drills"....why don't you ask Guro Denny about that. I think he would not agree with your perspective. There was a discussion along these lines on the Dog Brother forum several months ago.

[t_niehoff]

Dumbness is no barrier to success.

George W Bush.

I rest my case.

Finally! We agree on something.

[t_niehoff]

---If they are counter-productive, why would they still do them? As far as being able to do stuff "in spite of any traditional drills"....why don't you ask Guro Denny about that. I think he would not agree with your perspective. There was a discussion along these lines on the Dog Brother forum several months ago.

As I see it, it's a cost-benefit thing. Some very good people believe the cost of unrealistic drills/exercises almost never outweigh the actual benefits of the training (I think Thornton feels that way), while other very good people believe that limited unrelaitic exercises/drills can, if you realize and appreciate going into the drill the limitations/problems of the drill, can confer some benefits (I think Denny feels that way).

Often people who aren't fighters (who aren't training to fight and don't fight) point to the fact that many fighters actually do practice some unrealistic exercises/drills, and use that as a justification for their use of unrealistic drills/exercises ("see fighters do the same things as we do"). But, that isn't the case. The nonfighters aren't doing the realistic training and fighting like the fighters. And with the fighting comes a perspective, which includes being able to see the unrealistic drill/exercise for what it really is, what you can use it for in terms of fighting, etc. With that perspective you will be able to ignore and disregard to some extent, the problems/limitations of that drill, particularly because it is a small part of your overall training and you are doing much realistic training/fighting.

[t_niehoff]

Terence wrote:
Why is it useful to learn movements, actions, techniques, etc. in a way that we won't really use them? Do you see that when this happens you are not really learning or developing a skill? Because a skill is our ability to perform a task (what you will do in fighting), to do a certain thing. And you are not learning or developing that. You are learning and "developing"something else

---I think they are developing an "attribute" rather than a direct application skill. The attribute developed may be timing, rhythm, flow, contact sensitivity, etc. The flow drills of Kali, like WCK Chi Sao, build attributes that then come out in application. They are also a way to put in lots of repetitions of certain motions in a short amount of time in order to "burn" them into muscle memory. They are somewhat like a boxer working the speed bag. He doesn't punch the bag in the same way that he punches the opponent. He trains on the speed bag to develop attributes such as speed, rhythm and timing.

I think there is a problem with that view. Attributes are skill specific, so they can't really be developed apart from the skill itself.

I do agree that unrealistic drills/exercises are to learn movements/actions/etc. and permit us to focus on learning them to the point we can perform them comfortably. However, if we don't then practice them as we intend to really use them - by actually suing them - they won't develop into a skill.

[Knifefighter]

---If they are counter-productive, why would they still do them? As far as being able to do stuff "in spite of any traditional drills"....why don't you ask Guro Denny about that. I think he would not agree with your perspective. There was a discussion along these lines on the Dog Brother forum several months ago.

Marc and I have had that discussion before.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While this is not WC I guess it would be of interest to some based on their belief that some systms, Pekiti Tirsia for example in addition to Wing Chun are "fantasy based." Seems like a lot of the advocates of this belief feel that they have the golden apple so to speak. Well, here is an invitation for a Full Contact Stick and Knife Fighting event in the Phillipines. All comers are welcome. Seems to me like a good chance to show just how much "fantasy" is out there and to prove ones own effectiveness. Don't worry, I have it on good authority that similar events will be planned for the US in the future so that some of our members can put the naysayers to shame and prove that they are the only ones with the "real" knowledge to share.

Oh, funny thing is that among many of the Pekiti Tirisa brotherhood, Wing Chun is recognized as being both effective and worth training. But hey what do these guys know, after all our self proclaimed expert has stated they are part of the "fantasy based" group of theoritical fighters.

The Pekiti-Tirsia kali System is conducting a test of skill on FEbruary 12, 2008 in the Philippines .It is not a tournament but a test of oneself how effective a style or system all about FMA. Those who are talkers in the FMATALK is invited to be a man or woman to come out from their talking tongue so they can satisfy themselves what comes out from their mouth. If you cannot stand in the verbalization calisthenics you have no reason to be hiding under the curtain of woman's bedroom. Martial arts is not talking it is action and let the stick , blade , hands and feet speaks not your tongue.

Test of skill is no age limit , come and be man enough to prove your capabilities.

Location: Philippine Marines Training Ground

Forth Bonifacio, Taguig , Metro manila

Date: FEbruary 12,2008 starts at 10:00 Am.

Register address to Mandala Rommel Tortal email: rommeltortal@yahoo.com

TEl No. 011 63 920 241 9320

You can ask the rules if you are at the registration door . Be sure you make your reservation

[sihing]

Hello,

While this is not WC I guess it would be of interest to some based on their belief that some systms, Pekiti Tirsia for example in addition to Wing Chun are "fantasy based." Seems like a lot of the advocates of this belief feel that they have the golden apple so to speak. Well, here is an invitation for a Full Contact Stick and Knife Fighting event in the Phillipines. All comers are welcome. Seems to me like a good chance to show just how much "fantasy" is out there and to prove ones own effectiveness. Don't worry, I have it on good authority that similar events will be planned for the US in the future so that some of our members can put the naysayers to shame and prove that they are the only ones with the "real" knowledge to share.

Oh, funny thing is that among many of the Pekiti Tirisa brotherhood, Wing Chun is recognized as being both effective and worth training. But hey what do these guys know, after all our self proclaimed expert has stated they are part of the "fantasy based" group of theoritical fighters.

The Pekiti-Tirsia kali System is conducting a test of skill on FEbruary 12, 2008 in the Philippines .It is not a tournament but a test of oneself how effective a style or system all about FMA. Those who are talkers in the FMATALK is invited to be a man or woman to come out from their talking tongue so they can satisfy themselves what comes out from their mouth. If you cannot stand in the verbalization calisthenics you have no reason to be hiding under the curtain of woman's bedroom. Martial arts is not talking it is action and let the stick , blade , hands and feet speaks not your tongue.

Test of skill is no age limit , come and be man enough to prove your capabilities.

Location: Philippine Marines Training Ground

Forth Bonifacio, Taguig , Metro manila

Date: FEbruary 12,2008 starts at 10:00 Am.

Register address to Mandala Rommel Tortal email: rommeltortal@yahoo.com

TEl No. 011 63 920 241 9320

You can ask the rules if you are at the registration door . Be sure you make your reservation

Hey Dale,

Don't forget to bring your video camera to tape your fight, since I'm sure with your namesake and vast experience with the Dog Bro, you wouldn't let this chance to prove you point pass by Remember you have to post it on Youtube for it to be considered legitimate.

Have fun

James