Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Mas Judt]

Tatoo,
One last thing: based on your answers, you have no idea what I'm talking about. That's okay, your perspective puts you where you are. I'll try to elucidate later this afternoon, after a few pages decrying my sacrilege are posted

Enjoy

[Baqualin]

Hey Mas,
Not bad observations for someone outside of SD.....your more open minded than most....probally because of your knowledge of Indo arts. I'm curious (FMI) to know what exposure to our Xingi you've had (besides Bruce) & what your seeing that is off base.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Mas, It seems that a lot of the "JMA" influence comes from the "one-step sparring" that you have seen, am I correct on this? I'm also curious as to your observations that SD looks like a lot of CMA that has been taught in Indonesia for years. What do you mean by this? What are the common denominators in those styles and SD that you can observe? How, in your opinion, has that affected the original CMA origins for the better and/or for the worse?

[Lamassu]

I wouldn't rush into taping & posting to Youtube or the like. You've been doing SD for a while. You're going to still move like it for a while. If you're videoing for your own reference, way cool.

All you'll look like is somebody from SD doing a form from another style that's still not quite right. Get solid practice time in first. Then post it up.

That's actually something my friends and I would do back in San Marcos, we'd videotape each other doing various SD forms and then analyze them to see where in the form we would need improvement. My father in law gave us a digital camera/camcorder as a wedding present and my wife has been holding the camera while I practice my kung fu. I have a couple of good vids, if I do say so myself, but I can't post them because it's black belt material and blah blah blah.

Mas: I understand that there are some unscrupulous people out there that would take the time to "steal" a form posted on youtube, but without instruction from a teacher, there's no real understanding of what the practitioner is doing. I admit, I'm proud of how far I've come along in SD and I want to show off, because it's an acheivement for me, but I can't because of the off chance that some jack@ss is going to copy my movements and try to start a MA school with a half a$$ed form that he doesn't fully grasp.

MK is right, when you learn a form, it's yours to do as you please, forget it or practice it religiously it's yours now, you paid for it, it's yours.

[Mas Judt]

Because I bought a few moments:

BQ - Honestly, most of what I have seen was on video clips - the problems are common to most of the SD teaching of other systems: the limbs are often leading the motion and acting separate and distinct from the body. You see this on Sin The', so it is obviously how you guys are taught. Just imitating the gross motions does not impart the 'flavor' - there is an understanding of how to move the body. I could go on, but next folks will be saying 'we already do that!' Even though there are clips of Sin The' that show otherwise. Go dig up some old articles by Adam Hsu or George Xu on recognizing authentic CMA body method. While they largely discuss Northern Long Fist based arts (many of which are on your list) - they explain it well.

JP -
1.) Yes and no. The guys I met in Vegas - it was a school - I can't remember who they were as to be honest, I thought they were a little sad. They were practicing Chin Na that night - and it was all jujitsu-based stuff - not the CMA variants. The 'techniques' used karate strategies and movement. Now, some CMA HAS 'one-step' style exercises - like the long fist taught to kids or other methods were the use of range, power and response id different from JMA. The stuff I saw was definitely JMA influenced.

2.) There are several CMA derived schools that I have seen that are similar - low level body mechanics combined with intense conditioning. These were tough guys. While my personal experiences with SD to date have been less-than-impressive, I'm willing to bet within the system is some decent stuff/guys - although I'm also convinced by many of the responses I see (including the old saw about the CMA in China being different because it is not combative - a lie so hilarious and ignorant that it beggars the imagination) make me wonder.

In the Indo scene, teachers did not teach openly or much to any student not a disciple, and even then, much was held back. The end result is that many systems ended up getting virtually re-invented or watered down with each generation. See Don Draegers 'Weapons and fighting arts of indonesia' for more on this. THEN you aso find some CMA perfectly preserved, but labled as Silat - Mustika Kwitang for example is Nan Quan - and very well done.

I'd like to get together sometime to see the material you guys play. I don't think SD can really teach ALL the systems it claims, but now there is an 'SD' version. Not 'the original, 'combat ready methods lost to all of China', but a variant/imitation created in Indonesia.

There is a good chance that some interesting stuff is hidden there. I have a story (I won't name names) where a highly skilled CMA coach decided to share a secret training method with me. Turns out, I already knew it, I learned it from my Dutch-Indo teacher. So some of the stories I heard and dismissed, turned out to be somewhat true.

'Somewhat True' is a phrase I learned dealing in this arena.

More to follow...

3.)

[Mas Judt]

Lamassu, I wasn't suggesting you shouldn't do it, I was just pointing out one of the reasons someone might not want to. Some might think some of the SD stuff came about that way as it is often very different from the original.

But you make your own decisions. I personally dislike schools that try to control students in an unreasonable fashion.

[Leto]

What are the Japanese elements in SD? :
1. the uniform and belt ranking system (some other Chinese schools have also adopted this)
2. some terminoligy (kata, ni kyu, ik kyu, ippon, bo)
3. one step sparring (ippon), not from any particular style of karate, but of a "hard" style, and called by a Japanese word
4. sparring techniques: also not from any particular karate style, but many reminiscent of karate-style point sparring used in tournaments popular in the sixties and seventies (ala Ed Parker)
5. nunchaku - though it is possible that the weapon evolved from something used in China, there's no hard evidence...I've never seen it used in another Chinese style, or referred to in history/stories (unlike the sai/cha).
6. Using San He Quan(chien) as a dynamic tension/body conditioning exercise, just like goju ryu and uechi ryu use sanchin. All the Chinese styles that have this type of form (fujian white crane, five ancestors) perform it relaxed, for generating power. I don't know, it may also be used with tension sometimes, but certainly not all the time. That's the only way it's taught in SD (although the motions are very close to the five ancestor version).

Those are all I can think of. The one step, sparring techniques, and nunchaku are all things that are taught at lower belt level. This may be why people who try it out for a couple months, or just watch a class, might think there's no CMA in there.
I'm not going to site "flavor" as evidence of anything, it's too subjective.
After blackbelt, there is no more Japanese stuff. Whether the Chinese forms and weapons are performed "correctly" according to whomever and whatever style is another issue...but no one can deny that the qiang, jian, dao, and guan dao are Chinese weapons, or that Hei Hu Quan, Hua Quan and Zue Quan are of Chinese origin.

Many of the schools have dumped some of these elements. In the west, they don't use any Japanese terms (strangely, the rank certificates still have the Japanese rank names on them). In Altanta, they have changed to Chinese style uniforms as well. The change is only on the surface, though, all the content is still there.
The real question is where did these Japanese elements in the style come from? Were they inherited from GGM Ie's school in Indonesia, or added by GM The once he was in the US? Did they use Japanes terms in Indonesia, or were they used because the American students were familiar with them from previous martial arts experience? etc.
I think it's important to note that there is no evidence of any particular karate style in SD. There are no traditional kata or techniques. It mostly looks like things influenced by the "sportified" generic karate which was found in the US (and maybe other contries as well). The descendant of this type of style is generally called kempo.
The amount of material with any sort of karate/kempo influence is low.

[tattooedmonk]

Sd is not CMA/ JMA mix there is no JMA in it the physical properties of Sd are not JMA. However I will say that a persons Physical capabilities have alot to do with the way a style looks , also their physical personality as well, this may have something to do with how Sd looks. I have seen HARD JMA that looks soft due to the practioners weakness, of spirit or body. To say a martial art isnt what it is due to how it looks is like saying a car cant run because it is painted green.
No one can say that what they do is pure. All things and arts are influenced to some degree by these things. SD is CMA period end of subject. KC
Can we move on now????

HEHEHEHEHE It isa hybrid , remember the GI and the Terminiology and the one step ippons?? It seems to be easier to agree then disagree around here. I knew this would ruffle some feathers someplace.:

[tattooedmonk]

I'm also curious as to your observations that SD looks like a lot of CMA that has been taught in Indonesia for years. What do you mean by this? What are the common denominators in those styles and SD that you can observe? How, in your opinion, has that affected the original CMA origins for the better and/or for the worse?

Exactly!!!!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

ROFL! You just made me spit out my coffee.

I'll get back to this later, got a busy day.

Just promise me one thing - keep believing this, it is really, really funny.

One last thing - how do you use words that say ONE thing, then claim it actually says another 'it's just said differently?' Kinda retarded.

I quote Sin The' from the SD Association website;
"Grandmaster Sin realized that the world had plenty of engineers and scientists, but only one Shaolin Grandmaster."

Now which part is he NOT claiming to be the 'one Shaolin Grandmaster?'

You guys kill me.

One Shaolin Grandmaster ....of Shaolin Do.

[tattooedmonk]

What are the Japanese elements in SD? :
1. the uniform and belt ranking system (some other Chinese schools have also adopted this)
2. some terminoligy (kata, ni kyu, ik kyu, ippon, bo)
3. one step sparring (ippon), not from any particular style of karate, but of a "hard" style, and called by a Japanese word
4. sparring techniques: also not from any particular karate style, but many reminiscent of karate-style point sparring used in tournaments popular in the sixties and seventies (ala Ed Parker)
5. nunchaku - though it is possible that the weapon evolved from something used in China, there's no hard evidence...I've never seen it used in another Chinese style, or referred to in history/stories (unlike the sai/cha).
6. Using San He Quan(chien) as a dynamic tension/body conditioning exercise, just like goju ryu and uechi ryu use sanchin. All the Chinese styles that have this type of form (fujian white crane, five ancestors) perform it relaxed, for generating power. I don't know, it may also be used with tension sometimes, but certainly not all the time. That's the only way it's taught in SD (although the motions are very close to the five ancestor version).

Those are all I can think of. The one step, sparring techniques, and nunchaku are all things that are taught at lower belt level. This may be why people who try it out for a couple months, or just watch a class, might think there's no CMA in there.
I'm not going to site "flavor" as evidence of anything, it's too subjective.
After blackbelt, there is no more Japanese stuff. Whether the Chinese forms and weapons are performed "correctly" according to whomever and whatever style is another issue...but no one can deny that the qiang, jian, dao, and guan dao are Chinese weapons, or that Hei Hu Quan, Hua Quan and Zue Quan are of Chinese origin.

Many of the schools have dumped some of these elements. In the west, they don't use any Japanese terms (strangely, the rank certificates still have the Japanese rank names on them). In Altanta, they have changed to Chinese style uniforms as well. The change is only on the surface, though, all the content is still there.
The real question is where did these Japanese elements in the style come from? Were they inherited from GGM Ie's school in Indonesia, or added by GM The once he was in the US? Did they use Japanes terms in Indonesia, or were they used because the American students were familiar with them from previous martial arts experience? etc.
I think it's important to note that there is no evidence of any particular karate style in SD. There are no traditional kata or techniques. It mostly looks like things influenced by the "sportified" generic karate which was found in the US (and maybe other contries as well). The descendant of this type of style is generally called kempo.
The amount of material with any sort of karate/kempo influence is low.

Very good young padiwan!!

[tattooedmonk]

I have some forms that I would like to post how do I make a link? do I have to upload them to youtube( or something like it ) first? can someone tell me, please??

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have some forms that I would like to post how do I make a link? do I have to upload them to youtube( or something like it ) first? can someone tell me, please??

youtube is probably the best way, then just cut n paste the link.

[tattooedmonk]

youtube is probably the best way, then just cut n paste the link.

It will do it automatically??

[sanjuro_ronin]

It will do it automatically??

Put it up on youtube, wait till its working and then copy n paste the link into a thread.
Not sure what you mean by automatically...