Pien San Wing Chun

[Nick Forrer]

I have seen a few different groups from Bill Cheung's TWC start using different labels in front of their TWC Wing Chun name. I think some use the name Hung Suen after seeing HFY and Gary's group is using the Jee Shim label. Why? Dont know? I can only guess, and that guess would be TWC guys trying to link their art to other WC lineages? This speculation is based on Cheung sifu's TWC history not being able to be proven and students probally wanting some heritage to link to. Just an opinion. JR
!

They probably realised having seen leung jans art as it was passed down to the villagers in Gulao that it was nothing like the TWC they learnt in Australia and therefore realised how fishy the 'TWC comes from Leung Jan's son' story is.

BTW Jim how is Gulao pronounced? Goo-lao or Gor-lao?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

BTW Jim how is Gulao pronounced? Goo-lao or Gor-lao? Nick

Sounds like:

In the village they speak a Village dialect of Cantonese. They and my sifu pronounce it in a way that sounds like:

Goo-Lo

Lo is similar in English to the word "Low" (being the opposite of "High")

We all write it; "Kulo" these days

Hope this makes sense?

Gulao is not Cantonese but the standard rominization used today.


Peace,

[LoneTiger108]

You should visit or get in touch with our UK rep. He can help clear up any confusion for you especially since he spent a decade studying your LSWC system before PSWC proper. JR

I have yet to contact him yet Jim, as this season is still so busy. I did meet up at the weekend with some students who recall Rob and the Welsh crew. We spent the day at The British Museum in London and visited the famous 'First Emperor Exhibition'! A great day, and I aim to continue meeting with others next year.

Something for you to consider Jim is your UK rep is now your student, it really doesn't matter how long he was LSWC before becoming PSWC proper(?) as I can guarantee that he did not learn as I did. Guarantee! If he is interested in finding out more about LSWC I would be happy to meet with him and exchange. I am very interested in the Kulo lineage, as I feel we also have a strong connection to Leung Jan himself.

One thing I do know about Lee Shing is that he was a great advocote of 'study'! I learnt this from my Sifu, who was regarded as Lee Shings 'Gung Fu Son' and had a nickname like 'Crazy Joe' or something

I, and others, were taught from Chinese literature first, something I know other LSWC Sifu do not do. This does change things massively IMO, and it is not meant as a dig to anyone who has never done this. It was just the way, and the time, for my Sifu to teach like that to westerners. It all 'felt' right and I believe we may have been the first from the LSWC Family to learn in this way. I'm waiting to hear if there are others!

Wing Chun is a language in itself, and personal interpretation should not alter its core principles and foundation knowledge IMHHHHO. We're all the same at our core we just express our ideas differently.

This is where the 'Pien San' label turns my stomach as it's claiming to have 'new' things that are different than everyone else! Unless what you're saying Jim is that ALL the San Sau is taught with this angled body structure and there is no 'Chiu Yin' or 'square body' applications from Fung Sang at all? Then the name makes sense. The label Kulo Wing Chun is just as bad IMO as it's like us saying we're 'London Wing Chun'! Surely someone can clear this up without me having a phonecall or training session??!

How do all the mainland Families get on with HK Families anyway? Do they meet and exchange at all? Or are they as competitive as their brothers around the world!?

[CFT]

Nick, Jim,

I hope your browsers have Chinese language support switched on. I've got a few links to some Chinese University of Hong Kong web pages. There are audio clips which show how each character is pronounced.

Gu/Ku:
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-...ery=%a5%6a
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi.../sound/gu2.wav

Lao/Lo/Lou: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-...l?query=%b3%d2
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...sound/lou4.wav
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...sound/lou6.wav

There are 2 pronunciations for "Lo". I thought it was the first one (lou4) that was applicable in "Gulao"/"Kulo", but from Jim's description it might be the second one (lou6). Hopefully Jim can have a listen and provide feedback.

------------
Best wishes,
Chee.

[LoneTiger108]

Nick, Jim,

I hope your browsers have Chinese language support switched on.

Hey CFT! Thanks for a decent language site.

If only it were available to me back in the day, it would've saved so much tme

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,

This is where the 'Pien San' label turns my stomach as it's claiming to have 'new' things that are different than everyone else!

Really? Intersting that this bothers you so much since many of your Lee Shing family call their entire art Pin Sun (including the Yip training) and claim Pin Sun to be their so-called highest "secrets". Could it be something so simple that its just a label for the arts Signature? JR

Unless what you're saying Jim is that ALL the San Sau is taught with this angled body structure and there is no 'Chiu Yin' or 'square body' applications from Fung Sang at all? Then the name makes sense.

Bingo! Although some training does have exercises where both are directly in front of each other, mainly in the early/foundation practice, all application follows the above rule. So, if you see a Side Body guy doing a Facing Tan Da with Sun punch (one example) you will know thats not PSWC. JR

The label Kulo Wing Chun is just as bad IMO as it's like us saying we're 'London Wing Chun'! Surely someone can clear this up without me having a phonecall or training session??!

What about the label for "Lee Shing" you place in front of your WC? Surely that is just as frustrating to you or are you just looking at other arts labels. All arts use some kind of name in front of Wing Chun because it may be a lineage that has Signatures or some heritage that they want to give some credit to. Similar to Yuen or Yip or Cho or.... They are Wing Chun but with credit given to the main gatekeepers of the art. In Pin Sun family we have direct quotes from Leung Jan that state HE called the art Pin Sun and the practitioners outside the village Jing Sun WC. Dont let the names bother you. I suggest meeting and talking with your LS cousin as it gives you a better understanding. I recommend you meeting and Feeling him as you will then know the difference in Engine from the interaction. Thats where the main difference lay! Nothing can give you more info than first hand experience. JR

In a few weeks I will post some info on a little project i am working on. I will send you some info when its nearly done. Which it is!!!! I'm positive it will give you a better understanding of Leung Jan's PSWC.

Until then!

Peace,

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer,

I said "This is where the 'Pien San' label turns my stomach as it's claiming to have 'new' things that are different than everyone else!"

Really? Intersting that this bothers you so much since many of your Lee Shing family call their entire art Pin Sun (including the Yip training) and claim Pin Sun to be their so-called highest "secrets". Could it be something so simple that its just a label for the arts Signature? What about the label for "Lee Shing" you place in front of your WC? Surely that is just as frustrating to you or are you just looking at other arts labels. JR

EXACTLY my point Jim Even our own get confused sometimes. If it's all about 'signatures' though, the LSWC I trained is not PSWC, although the way it's excecuted in combat IS like described we also 'use' Jin San (square body) just as much. Others can chat all they like, as most of them are older than me. And MANY of the LS Family 'have called' their art PSWC because of marketting and misunderstanding IMO. Kulo was again, IMO, another way for us to attach ourselves to the mainland by yet another of my Uncles. Let's not forget that these 'Uncles' I talk of were, for some reason tbc, barred from joining the Ip Family organisations in HK.

There is, as far as I'm aware NO Lee Shing Wing Chun association, organisation or school in existence today. I personally have used the term loosely here, and on other forums, to generalize our whole family as it's the only way I feel does us all justice. Just my opinion, and I'm sure people will come and chat to me if they need to.

Do I know Lee Shings Salutation? Hmmm, I'll let you guess...

I said "Unless what you're saying Jim is that ALL the San Sau is taught with this angled body structure and there is no 'Chiu Yin' or 'square body' applications from Fung Sang at all? Then the name makes sense."

Bingo! Although some training does have exercises where both are directly in front of each other, mainly in the early/foundation practice, all application follows the above rule. So, if you see a Side Body guy doing a Facing Tan Da with Sun punch (one example) you will know thats not PSWC. JR

THANK YOU!! I've waited for this response and clarification for a long time! This is what I remember being taught as Pien San Ma.

In a few weeks I will post some info on a little project i am working on. I will send you some info when its nearly done. Which it is!!!! I'm positive it will give you a better understanding of Leung Jan's PSWC.

I am looking forward to it Jim, and sure it will help me understand where you're coming from. I just wonder if you have any interest at all in what I am saying about Lee Shing. You are aware that my Sihing and I used a 32 point system to open our Academy here in London almost 5 years ago, aren't you?

I just get the feeling you think I've been training for only 2 years or something...

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


EXACTLY my point Jim Even our own get confused sometimes. If it's all about 'signatures' though, the LSWC I trained is not PSWC, although the way it's excecuted in combat IS like described we also 'use' Jin San (square body) just as much.

I know. You guys are all similar. Just watch the old clip from Joe Lee. Its classic LSWC. This is not unusual or exclusive to LS BTW. Yuen system does sup yi sic which uses more turning/angling and Yuen futshan proper stuff which is Jing Sun. JR

And MANY of the LS Family 'have called' their art PSWC because of marketting and misunderstanding IMO. Kulo was again, IMO, another way for us to attach ourselves to the mainland by yet another of my Uncles.

I dont care what people call their art. Getting frustrated over a Label is a waste of time. Who cares? If its ok with Leung Jan, and others ancestors like Sum Nung and the Cho, then its ok with me. JR

Let's not forget that these 'Uncles' I talk of were, for some reason tbc, barred from joining the Ip Family organisations in HK.

I'm not interested in the Lee Shing family skeletons/politics. JR


I am looking forward to it Jim, and sure it will help me understand where you're coming from.



I just wonder if you have any interest at all in what I am saying about Lee Shing. You are aware that my Sihing and I used a 32 point system to open our Academy here in London almost 5 years ago, aren't you?

Am I interested in what you are saying? Yes and No. Why? From what i have read you are not saying anything different from other LS decendants. And, you have not shown any examples of your direct transmission LS art that make it any different from other LS. Maybe you need to get deeper into what makes "Your" Lee Shing tick. The deeper you talk, the deeper other respond. JR

I just get the feeling you think I've been training for only 2 years or something...

To be honest, I am not thinking about your level at all. Your asking all sorts of Kulo/Pin Sun questions and then I tell you of a local guy to chat/possibly experience if you want? In your own region. I would jump on the chance but thats me! The only thing I do know is you said; you have never met "one" Kulo lineage besides your own LS clan, so I think the more exposure the better understanding of the art you can gain and then our conversation can get better details.

I have to run but am going back to lurk mode after I listen to those Chinese sounds. I will post a thread soon regarding the project. It should be ready to go within a few weeks. Actually, a few days if I am not too busy at work.

Thanks for the chat.

[LoneTiger108]

Thank you for sharing your insights. Looks like next year will be a good one!

As I mentioned in a previous post, there is a Sifu Tong Liu who is also teaching LSWC in Liverpool. He is possibly the only commercial school to claim Joseph Cheng lineage in the UK.

Here's his profile:

http://www.wingchunmaster.com/Sifu%20Tong.html

The 'Family Tree' is very interesting IMHO...

[CFT]

I have to run but am going back to lurk mode after I listen to those Chinese sounds.

Jim, can you tell us whether it is lou4 or lou6?

[LoneTiger108]

Maybe, with your linguistics you could assist me in my other thread?

Please have a look and contribute...

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...=48517&page=10

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.w1ng.com/author/antony-casella/

Some excellent clips and articles on YKS/Sum Nung Pien San Wing Chun.

[CFT]

Maybe, with your linguistics you could assist me in my other thread?

Please have a look and contribute...

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...=48517&page=10

Spencer, I've replied on the other thread.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Sifu Tong Liu stuff:

He does a lot of martial art. Including Jook Lum Gee Nam Tong Long. This system is known for cultivating Gan Tun Geng. They utilize many solo and partner exercises that condition the body MUCH different from Wing Chun. One is Rou Jing and the other is Not. The Dip Gwat Gong (bone/rib work) of South Mantis is famous but certainly different. The resulting conditioning of Jook Lum art will have reverse effects on Wing Chun. Different animals. The body stucture, one is hard bow 3 Step base and the other is not. This doesn't mean you cant do both but you wont get a good idea about PSWC Chuk Ging from someone who does Jook Lum. I'm sure he is talented but I am just talking art specifics.

BTW: Jook Lum is my second love in Chinese fighting arts. I dont study anymore but thinks its great but certainly not Rou. JR

Antony Casella on W1NG.com!


Some excellent clips and articles on YKS/Sum Nung Pien San Wing Chun.

*

These are nice clips. Its been a long time since I have seen Anthony.

This is not Pin Sun Wing Chun even tho they turn/angle. Its Sum Nung's Sup Yi Sic. Pin Sun Wing Chun is not just short series of Fighting Techniques. Its more like a condensed SLT/CK/BJ or super mini set done with pre-wong wah bo principles/gong. Similar but different. Pin Sun Wing Chun is Pin Sun Wing Chun and Yuen system Sup Yi Sic is Sup Yi Sic. Both are Wing Chun but with different design/principles. Just because both have the same Numerology (12) that doesn't mean they are the same. Hope that helps.

Gotta run!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

There are 2 pronunciations for "Lo". I thought it was the first one (lou4) that was applicable in "Gulao"/"Kulo", but from Jim's description it might be the second one (lou6). Hopefully Jim can have a listen and provide feedback.

I listened to all of them. Maybe its because I am not used to hearing a Woman's voice say Kulo, so it was hard to tell. The Lo (2nd/3rd more so than first) were close but the Ku did not sound the same. It could be the woman's voice and the length of the sound she uses to say Kulo. Kulo is a Harsh village Cantonese and I am sure if your not from Kulo you will not have the same accent. If you listen to Old Fung Sifu speak on youtube, you can hear how harsh he sounds.

Sorry I could not be more help. I dont speak Chinese!

*
This was written to me just this week from someone visiting Kulo:

Most villages have a dialect somewhat different from standard Cantonese...ie. the Fungs speak Fung Hua ..Fung language...I didn't recognize any Hakka language Hua. And no one there is Hakka, they said. All were Canton (Guangdong) folks. I can catch a bit of Cantonese. The younger folks all there speak Mandarin, Guoyu, Putonghua (three names for the same) and with this, I can communicate. Now, these days, they (Kulo elders) said most younger folks speak that, instead of Cantonese.

Hope this helps!

See ya!