Martial Arts & Religion

[tattooedmonk]

This is less about christianity and more about a McDojo concept. It's easier to sucker in christians if they think it's jesus-oriented.

I have to agree that it is easier to sucker Christians if it is Jesus oriented.I have to add that there is nothing wrong with religion on the whole, however, it is the extremists and the misguided that make religion look bad.

[tattooedmonk]

This guy is weird

But its no different then Shaolin Temple teaching martial Arts. It goes against the basic principles of buddhism.

Yeah, he says he learned everything else but Kung Fu and now is a Kung Fu teacher

This guy is weird for sure.
If Martial arts training goes against basic buddhist principles, how do you think it is that Shaolin came to practice it??

KUNGFU??Depends on what your definition of Kung Fu is.

[tattooedmonk]

I just skimmed the Christian Wushu Fellowship website. Interesting.

ngokfei - the practice of martial arts only goes against the basic principles of Buddhism if your intention is misguided. Of course, if you're fixated on some of the sutras the forbid monks touching weapons, you could make an argument focusing on that particular instance, but it would be a mistake to do so. Every longstanding religion has developed contradictory interpretations and they all preach peace to some degree. The same is essentially true for Taoism and Christianity. At least Islam is more honest that way.

Gene, I like the way you see things.

[tattooedmonk]

um isn't all the animal and element style meditations too pagan for jesus....

This is a very good point. This is a topic for a whole new thread. I have had many discussions about this.

[tattooedmonk]

actually no there not. you have allot of Christian kung fu masters, both western and Chinese(met quite a few xing yi teacher's who were Christians in Taiwan and even a few here in new york) while the animal styles can be considered shamanic it all depends on the way you practice really.

Converts???

[tattooedmonk]

so...how the hell does he know hop gar? period.

Fixed it for ya.

[diego]

This is a very good point. This is a topic for a whole new thread. I have had many discussions about this.

this christian cat was all into me showing him some gung fu...we start talking about how i like bhudda and all the prophets in general...he like jesus...i'm like yeah bhudda was before jesus he did some good...he like jesus...i'm like yeah all the religions is just god speaking differant languages...he like jesus

i got to the point where it's just like dude you wack all about jesus condescending others...i be like bhudda he like jesus is all what else is there....um mad history before jesus was born....all you need is jesus...

basically i got to the point i was like jesus is gay suck him off *****...no disrespect to ****sexuals i'm an 80's baby grew up on rambo and **** that's just how i talk

told him you wack talking all about jesus is the best when islam peeps and bhuddists hindu etc have helped more people than you have talking all about how much you like jesus and he rubs your balls....i'm was like how many people have you helped ****er! **** jesus

now i love talking about what is GOD i can't stand the toy closedmindedness of born again retards....i went to sunday school i know all about jesus...cuz i research every religion so i know about lighting up the darkness...

[sanjuro_ronin]

this christian cat was all into me showing him some gung fu...we start talking about how i like bhudda and all the prophets in general...he like jesus...i'm like yeah bhudda was before jesus he did some good...he like jesus...i'm like yeah all the religions is just god speaking differant languages...he like jesus

i got to the point where it's just like dude you wack all about jesus condescending others...i be like bhudda he like jesus is all what else is there....um mad history before jesus was born....all you need is jesus...

basically i got to the point i was like jesus is gay suck him off *****...no disrespect to ****sexuals i'm an 80's baby grew up on rambo and **** that's just how i talk

told him you wack talking all about jesus is the best when islam peeps and bhuddists hindu etc have helped more people than you have talking all about how much you like jesus and he rubs your balls....i'm was like how many people have you helped ****er! **** jesus

now i love talking about what is GOD i can't stand the toy closedmindedness of born again retards....i went to sunday school i know all about jesus...cuz i research every religion so i know about lighting up the darkness...

and on that note:

[diego]

and on that note:

THROWS ZIPPO IN THE AIR and shouts HipHopHooray

[cjurakpt]

and on that note:

THROWS ZIPPO IN THE AIR and shouts HipHopHooray

no, I think you were supposed to shout, "Puh-RAYZ-ah J-EE-ahzus!!!"

[diego]

no, I think you were supposed to shout, "Puh-RAYZ-ah J-EE-ahzus!!!"

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=4TtiiwItCEU

[ngokfei]

Gene,

Your right in this case because we are talking about "Chinese" Buddhism which in many places diverts from the Source - India. To talk about Shaolin's take on Buddhism is unique to themselves only, and something to discuss for another day.

You can take anything and make it fit what you are doing. Take the Constitution, the Bible/Tora/Koran.

Trying to write something down clearly that can not be interpreted in another way. This is why lawyers are so rich

[GeneChing]

How about Jewish TKD?

Judaism and martial arts: compatible for life
By Rabbi David Burstein and Steve Markman, Special To The Dayton Jewish Observer

Recent visitors to the Boonshoft Center for Jewish Culture and Education have noticed dozens of adults and children dressed in white martial arts uniforms and sporting a rainbow of different colored belts to participate in tae kwon do classes. Tae kwon do is a Korean martial art. The name literally means "the way of the hand and foot."

As with most martial arts, it started as a military fighting technique. Today, more than 170 million people in more than 182 countries study tae kwon do, most often for fitness and sport.

While martial arts can be practiced only for sport, fitness, or self-defense, the serious student soon learns that a deeper, almost spiritual level, also exists.

Is this consistent with Jewish beliefs? Absolutely. Over the centuries, martial art practitioners developed warrior codes to bond themselves to each other and to the people they pledged their lives to protect.

These codes all revolved around ideals such as courage, honesty, courtesy, compassion, honor, modesty, sincerity, and loyalty to one’s country, family, and friends.

Over the years that we’ve studied martial arts, we’ve seen that martial arts and Jewish beliefs are not only similar, but very compatible.

In both, there is a keen sense of lineage and heritage. Honoring our ancestors and where we have come from is integral to Judaism.

We consistently recall and remember our ancestors and their lessons in our prayer service and with the recitation of the Torah cycle.

As Jews, we trace our ancestry to Abraham and feel that we all are part of his family. The Jewish faith has developed and diversified since Abraham passed his belief of a single God to his descendants.

While we all practice different levels of observance, we celebrate this common heritage and share a common language.

Similarly, martial arts evolved over the last several thousand years as practitioners refined and passed their skills and beliefs from generation to generation, often in secret.

Masters trained new masters and techniques became more precise, focused, and deadly. But a similar sense of heritage and family exists among serious practitioners of martial arts, their students, and their masters.

Judaism is about study, practice, and discipline. What rabbi doesn’t encourage his or her congregation to come for regular study?

While Judaism has its own dogma, the rabbinic and lay interpretations are all over the map. Two Jews will always have at least three opinions. That’s why we study together, discuss, debate and argue, but always walk away with the feeling we’ve learned and helped each other to learn.

Similarly, martial arts require continued study, practice and discipline. The physical aspects have to be repeated over and over under the watchful eyes of instructors and through individual practice.

A new technique may take thousands of repetitions. The serious student also learns the warrior code — the way of the warrior — and how it applies in peace as well as war.

Most people initially think that martial arts are all about fighting. This is not quite true. Yes, they’re about defending oneself and others. But they’re also about not having to fight by developing the confidence to know one can defeat an attacker if necessary.

One of our favorite lines comes from the movie The Karate Kid: "Fighting not good. Somebody always get hurt. But if you have to fight, win!"

With the warrior code in mind, the trained martial artist detests hurting or killing an opponent, but if forced to fight, he or she will fight to win. Martial arts are about preserving life.

Jewish belief puts the saving of life above all else. Jews have lots of rules. Most of us don’t follow all of them, but enough of them to make us feel Jewish.

However, virtually all rules can be violated if needed to save a life. It can be breaking kashrut (kosher laws), or driving or turning on an electrical device on Shabbat.

It also can be killing someone intent on taking another’s life, if that is the only way to stop the attack.

In Judaism, the thoughts we glean from the morning sermon or the evening class don’t end there. We take those thoughts with us and use them to improve ourselves and help others.

We put those thoughts into actions. We call them mitzvot (commandments).

Some Jews believe that doing mitzvot will help bring Moshiach (the Messiah), some are committed to helping others, and some feel it’s just the right thing to do.

The warrior code in martial arts, in part, is about helping others. In past times, martial artists were pledged to help and defend the common people.

This set them apart, placing them in a special position of respect by their countrymen. While martial artists today will rush to help a person being threatened, they also will help in other situations wherever possible.

Many martial art schools require each student to perform random acts of kindness.

These can be helping parents, helping friends or helping a stranger, without being asked. Mitzvot, if you like.

Martial arts did not arise only in the east. Many non-Asian countries around the world developed their own martial arts, including Israel.

Two Israeli martial arts taught worldwide are krav maga and haganah. These were developed by the Israeli military and were designed to teach critical fighting skills quickly to new soldiers.

Another Israeli martial art called abir was developed by Yehoshua Sofer, a Chasidic Jew and seventh-degree black belt.

Sofer trained in traditional Korean martial arts and Torah, and melded the two into a martial art based on biblical philosophy and history.

Abir focuses around 12 groupings of techniques, not surprisingly, one for each tribe. Abir is taught only in Israel at this time.

One last thought: martial arts beliefs never mention God, at most, a requirement to be religious.

Some medieval codes required knights to be religious, but didn’t mention any specific religion.

While we can profess a love for God, the real test of that love is how we live our lives.

We see Judaism as a religion that requires responsibility from its followers.

There is no deathbed forgiveness. A life lived with honor ultimately will end with honor, even for those who choose not to follow a religion or even believe in God.

These may be very Jewish thoughts, but they are also martial arts thoughts.

There is a place for faith in both Judaism and martial arts.

We as martial artists believe in our masters and trust in the skills they’ve taught us. We have faith in the inherent goodness and responsibility of our teachers.

There are many martial arts and many religions in the world. We realize that neither the religion nor the martial art that we’ve chosen is the only path for all people.

We share our stories and profess faith for God through discipline and action. We also realize that within Judaism and society there are many paths that are valid and honorable.

We respect these paths as we would our own.

Rabbi David Burstein, assistant rabbi at Temple Beth Or, holds black belts in two different martial arts. Steve Markman, a fifth-degree black belt, teaches tae kwon do at the Boonshoft CJCE. He is also commander of Jewish War Veterans Post 587.

[GeneChing]

I'm retitling this thread from the original Christian Gung-Fu to Martial Arts & Religion. We got off to an odd start with this - too specific - but I think it's a great thread for more discussion.

Last update - 13:09 04/02/2008
Kosher karate
By Ariel Rubinsky

"When I pray my kavana (intent) and my concentration are above average, because I train in tora dojo," says Ari Fuld, a resident of Efrat in the West Bank, a third dan in the unique martial art form known in the United States as the "Jewish karate."

Tora dojo is a method that combines "hard," sharp Japanese karate with "soft" Chinese martial arts, which focus on inner strength and flowing movement. This method encourages advanced students to study and experience other methods; each student who reaches the level of black belt receives a reading list of recommended Chinese texts. Moreover, there are no competitions. Practitioners, both religiously observant and secular, end each training session with chi kong (Chinese meditation).

At a time when the trend in martial arts is forgoing the spiritual aspect in favor of the most effective fighting techniques, tora dojo, which started within the American Jewish community, stands out. Through the rank of black belt, tora dojo is not very different from any other type of Japanese karate; training concentrates mostly on techniques from the Japanese shotokan method. However, after that point, students begin learning various types of kung fu, including pa kwa and white crane, as well as tai chi and other Chinese methods.
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"Tora dojo is essentially a school of general martial arts. It enables personal development in the wide world of the martial arts," says Yali Rothenberg, 34, who has been practicing tora dojo for 18 years. "We aren't trying to prove which school is better or more effective - in the end, it all depends on the fighter, not the school. The focus is on learning and development."

"This is a Jewish discipline in the familial, traditional sense," adds Fuld, noting that three of his four children train. "After all, Judaism is about traditional learning and teaching, because something important is lost or eradicated with every change. This is also the case in the Chinese-Japanese world, and this is how we train, with much respect for the method."

Training with Gaydamak

Tora dojo began in the 1960s at Yeshiva University in New York, when professor Harvey Sober, a martial arts expert, concluded that yeshiva students needed karate training to strengthen their backs. The method's name is a play on words: "Tora" sounds like Torah but also means "tiger" in Japanese; dojo is a center for martial arts. The discipline received its kashrut certificate from the community and its rabbis.

It was imported to Israel in the early 1980s. There are now several clubs in the Jerusalem area and the center of the country. Disciples include Arcadi Gaydamak, who has frequent private lessons at his Caesarea home, led by his close adviser Gidi Marinovsky, a senior teacher of the method.

In the United States the system is taught at Jewish educational and cultural centers, including synagogues, and therefore the vast majority of the practitioners are Jews, many of them religiously observant. In Israel, many of the instructors have English-language accents, and many of the students wear skullcaps.

"This isn't a religious discipline, but it respects tradition, be it Jewish, Chinese or something else. Therefore, religious people feel more comfortable with us," says Arthur Gribetz, the chief trainer in Jerusalem and head of the school in Israel. He does not wear a skullcap, and considers himself Conservative.

"Openness is necessary for learning, and when you hear somebody religious explaining that during meditation he connects to a kind of higher power, it helps you to open yourself to the other," says Rothenberg, who is secular.

Gribetz notes that the founder of the system, Sober, was well-versed in Eastern philosophies and ideas. "Sober compared and contrasted Eastern and Jewish meditation, especially kabbala. He lectures about this at annual seminars in Israel," he says.

Fuld adds: "I am religious, and when I was studying at a yeshiva I was told that I have to pray with kavana but no rabbi told me how. I found I could connect to kavana through tora dojo, especially the meditation and guided imaging. After all, all prayer is a kind of meditation or trance."

Fuld says he once turned to "a great rabbi," and asked whether he was "transgressing boundaries." He says the rabbi told him, "Of course not. That is how prayer is supposed to be; the individual should be seeing himself as though he is standing before the Shekhinah," God's presence on earth.

Why is it so important that a karate student meditate?

"Because without this, the movement is technical and lacks content, and this is palpable at the higher levels. If the inner feeling isn't there, something is missing," says Fuld.

For Rothenberg, meditation is the most essential part of martial arts. "What distinguishes martial arts from other sports is the profundity, the inward contemplation," he says. "A good fighter is always aware of himself and his surroundings, because the victor is the one who adapts most quickly to changes. Therefore he has to be alert to his emotions and his opponent's emotions in order to read the opponent's moves and react accordingly - not in terms of thought, because there is no time for that, but rather movement. Meditation affords the tools for this, the concentration, the inner awareness and the awareness of the opponent's smallest nuances."

Rothenberg, who works at the Finance Ministry, says a fighter can take in everything the opponent does. "Not to clash with him head on, but rather to connect to him, to understand him. And this is good for all interactions, be it in fraught negotiations or a within a relationship or the family."

As for the lack of competitions, Gribetz explains, "If you want to win in competition, you have to neglect other things. Therefore, we feel that a discipline with competitions loses its principles and gradually disconnects from tradition."

Fuld adds that the school has more sublime aims than winning competitions. "Tora dojo includes hard physical work and it is also effective as self defense, but the aim is inner progress, progress as a human being, to neutralize the ego," he says.

[RAB]

That's a good idea because you can't separate Chinese culture from Chinese kung fu. This guy was just creating another commercial niche for Americans.