Question for teachers about apps practice

[rogue]

When you get into techs beyond kickboxing, nobody seems to want to do it, and their eyes glaze over. I think it's just too complicated for them to deal with. Same thing happens if you take one of their forms and break it down into apps they run back to their kickboxing as well.

I really believe if something is coming across as complicated in the MA it could be the instructors fault. People do complicated things everyday without even thinking about them, so the instructor has to either adjust how he's teaching or find out why the student is making something complicated.

If you aren't having success with breaking down forms to teach applications then don't do it. Drop the darn things as most karate people don't look to kata for applications or even link them to fighting. If they are kickboxers then figure out how to use kickboxing as the jumping off point for what you're teaching.

But it could be the violence thing. I have no idea.
Don't you think you should find out?

[andyhaas]

When you get into techs beyond kickboxing, nobody seems to want to do it, and their eyes glaze over. I think it's just too complicated for them to deal with. Same thing happens if you take one of their forms and break it down into apps they run back to their kickboxing as well.

I really believe if something is coming across as complicated in the MA it could be the instructors fault. People do complicated things everyday without even thinking about them, so the instructor has to either adjust how he's teaching or find out why the student is making something complicated.

If you aren't having success with breaking down forms to teach applications then don't do it. Drop the darn things as most karate people don't look to kata for applications or even link them to fighting. If they are kickboxers then figure out how to use kickboxing as the jumping off point for what you're teaching.

But it could be the violence thing. I have no idea.
Don't you think you should find out?

I like the way you insinuate it's the instructor's fault. I'm glossing things over here a bit because I HAVE asked people why, and from their responses and background, the answer is:

a) People's IQs are about on average 90 and most just literally can't grok anything more complicated than basic punches/kicks and kickboxing. It takes the average martial artist about 2 years just to get the basic punches/kicks and kickboxing down, and the average karate class doesn't get into bunkai for apps until the black belt level.

b) Political correctness. Nobody likes thinking taiji and baguazhang are about actually breaking people's bones, etc. They want to do something for health or to study eastern philosophy maybe, and they don't want to actually practice self defense or think about hurting people.

I was trying to be nice and politically correct, but if you want my assumptions about what the answers are, there they are.

[rogue]

I like the way you insinuate it's the instructor's fault. I'm glossing things over here a bit because I HAVE asked people why, and from their responses and background, the answer is:

I'm not insinuating, I'm being up front, when people are having a problem in a class the common denominator is the instructor. Many times the only person who doesn't see this is the instructor.

a) People's IQs are about on average 90 and most just literally can't grok anything more complicated than basic punches/kicks and kickboxing. It takes the average martial artist about 2 years just to get the basic punches/kicks and kickboxing down, and the average karate class doesn't get into bunkai for apps until the black belt level.

As a recovering karateka most karate schools never get into bunkai, ever. The emphasis is on kata as performance art and various types of kumite for fighting skills.

What's up with the IQ focus? You're an instructor, you're job is to take average people and bring them to whatever level of proficiency they can achieve. It's really that simple. The best teachers I have had were always the ones that did more thinking about how to make me better than believing I couldn't ever understand something.

b) Political correctness. Nobody likes thinking taiji and baguazhang are about actually breaking people's bones, etc. They want to do something for health or to study eastern philosophy maybe, and they don't want to actually practice self defense or think about hurting people.

And that's a problem? I have met very few people that think about personally inflicting pain on others. And I hate to break the news but living a healthy life is the first and most important part of self defense.

I was trying to be nice and politically correct, but if you want my assumptions about what the answers are, there they are.

PC is David Ross' area of expertise.

[SPJ]

I was going to post more.

somehow, my computer loads very and very slow tonite.

as pointed out.

1, if you use palm strikes more, we have to condition our hands such as in iron palm or eagle claw.

2. if you want to practice qin na and anti qin na, there are a lot of ba gua moves getting in and out qin na. then we have to practice grabbing or pinching powers with our fingers.

3. if you want to focus on throws, we have to work on our lifting powers, leg and back powers etc, we have to practice with a dummy or even a pole with a weight on one end as those used in shuai jiao.

--

in short a lot of conditioning and practice with equipments.

as you pointed out, safe partner training is very important.

we have to go thru techniques together, and modify some of the end points to be safe for every one participating.

--

like it or not, human body is very fragile or easy to break.

just a lot of cautions and know when and how to stop before some serious injury occurs.

best of luck.

[the Preacher]

I've been thinking of teaching baguazhang but I can't get around the fact that the techniques my last teacher Zhang Jie dumped on me aren't kickboxing, and the forms aren't pretty wushu or karate.

I'm trying to figure out how to teach the apps he taught me safely. How do people teach throat grabs / eye rakes / throws / etc., and what age range do you think would be best? I'm trying to figure out if it's worth it from a liability standpoint.

I'm thinking I'd have to require students to be at least 16+ years old, but I'm still worried of people over-extending themselves and messing themselves up or over as the case may be, simply because it's so hard practicing right without getting hurt.

?how your teacher taught you, that might work for you?
anyway
cool video
Bagua training



to be able to use any application
takes lots of repetition (kung fu)
and proper technique (form)

safety first
specific equipment can help tremendously
train step by step


as far as liability
waivers help

[diego]

I like the way you insinuate it's the instructor's fault. I'm glossing things over here a bit because I HAVE asked people why, and from their responses and background, the answer is:

a) People's IQs are about on average 90 and most just literally can't grok anything more complicated than basic punches/kicks and kickboxing. It takes the average martial artist about 2 years just to get the basic punches/kicks and kickboxing down, and the average karate class doesn't get into bunkai for apps until the black belt level.

b) Political correctness. Nobody likes thinking taiji and baguazhang are about actually breaking people's bones, etc. They want to do something for health or to study eastern philosophy maybe, and they don't want to actually practice self defense or think about hurting people.

I was trying to be nice and politically correct, but if you want my assumptions about what the answers are, there they are.

the average joe is not that active, so yeah good luck teaching traditional gung fu to a nerd

seriously, I've been doing construction for the last ten years and my body is just now ready to master my basics...horse to steal step to twist step drop back one leg sink to lean horse...low sweeps to tornado kicks...the average joe doesn't have the hips for that


my only advice to you is teach them to love hard work before you even talk about killing and the art of mastering aggression to create internal peace. you know how many times i been punched in the head to create internal peace...I mean the average joe ain't having it

[Shaolin]

sounds like you are in a real hurry to do just that yourself...

Yes I am, because teaching the martial arts is a privilege, not a right. The student's best interests must be considered before each lesson presented. Take for example a woman that seeks training because she has been abused, and comes to a school to build her physical, mental, and emotional strengths. If the woman is not gently guided through her training she could not only quit the arts but the experience could be damaging to her self-esteem. The arts are supposed to help build the student's inner and outer strengths not take from them. This is why I say, if one has not been formally instructed how to teach, then they should not.

[Chosen-frozen]

Hmmm ... as for being formally instructed to teach, I got permission at least to teach a few people, if that's what you mean. As for the drills, they're pretty straightforward, I just don't run into many schools these days that actually do that sort of thing. It's pretty much just punch-kick, etc.

Some people do 2-man practice forms, but I'm just worried about techniques and people getting hurt. I don't really want to make students take forms for years before training apps but unfortunately I don't know what kind of control students have. As for the actually testing the apps myself on the street, no, I haven't. Don't have much opportunity to fight. But one example is like palm back to the floating ribs to break the ribs, other person blocks with downward palm, then exchange a strike to the ribs on the side, trade off. That one isn't exactly rocket science, as the floating ribs are easy to break.

I don't want to charge for lessons, but from a liability standpoint, that's probably a bad idea because it's not worth it to teach and be open to people suing.

So ... I'm not sure. I'm not really in a position to open a school right now and I checked on liability insurance, and it's about $500 per year or something, so I guess I won't teach right now.

If you`re really interested in protecting yourself from being sued, find a lawyer and resister as a corperation in your state. Then if someone sues your school, they can`t take your personal property (house, car, place a garnish on your wages,etc) becauseyou and you school are two seperate legal entities. This also protects you from something as simple as some dope tripping on the carpet in your place.

Incorperating will also save you thousands in taxes because all business expenses are deducted BEFORE you add up your taxable income.