Bow Sim Mark's approach to Yu Hai's Mantis Form (a must see)

[Three Harmonies]

Mickey
I am not once again going to get into this, you can search old threads for my opinions and the reasoning behind them.
Qi is important to fighting only in the context that if you have none, you are dead. When you are dead you cannot fight very well. Other than that qi has nothing to do with fighting. I will happily admit my wrong opinion when it is proven to me. So far with all the great teachers I have met, not one has proven to me that qi has anything to do with fighting and combatives. Period. I have yet to see anything that cannot be explained scientifically regarding physiology and anatomy.
Feel free to prove me wrong, I actually will openly admit that I welcome it.
Thanks
Jake

[mickey]

Three Harmonies,

I totally agree with your last post. I never said anything to the contrary in this thread. If so, find the quote and post it up. You will not be able to find it.


mickey

[Tainan Mantis]

Can someone explain how performing a traditional mantis set will make you a better fighter than performing a wushu set?

Great question. I am glad you asked it.
I think it gets to the heart of the matter.

I don't have much experience in new wushu, but I don't think that is a major problem in answering this question.

In Mantis as I was taught and teach, the solo moves are very similar to how I train the applications on a partner.

So when I train the solo form, there is that imagination component. Over the years I have noticed that it helps to have that component.

For someone who does not know the apps of their forms or maybe knows them, but doesn't apply them, then there may be little difference between training new wushu forms and and old forms of whatever style.

The wushu forms have a martial application, it just depends on if you know what it is.

My shifu knew it and told us the good and bad points.

His student, Li Junhuai, was a full contact champ in Taiwan at a young age.

He qualified for the Asian olympics and was a profesioonal student in the forms division.

My shifu was selected in a National Martial Art examination as the coach of new wush nan quan.

He coached my brother to get the bronze, silver and finally Gold before retiring.

They believed that it kept the body fit, but to fight you must train fighting.

The goal of the new wushu forms is asthetics.

The old forms have a differnt goal.
-To pass on the techniques of the style.
-To train the body physically.
-A dictionary of combinations and applicaitons.

Kevin

www.plumflowermantisboxing.com

[Three Harmonies]

Mickey
Perhaps I misunderstood your comment that started with "But....." then. My bad.
Jake

[mickey]

Defining Cross Training

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/kb.p...e=article&k=80




mickey

[mantis108]

Defining Cross Training

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/kb.p...e=article&k=80




mickey

Hi Mickey,

A blast from the past.

Thank you for posting the link. I couldn't believe it's still on the cyberkwoon. I haven't visited that site for a long time. I am glad that you bring this up as I am rewriting my wooden dummy article into a book which will include a revised version of this old article as one of the chapters.

Warm regards

Robert

[mantid1]

Thanks Kevin

Great post.

[Redfish]

At the risk of agreeing with certain people again - I'd like to forward an example in favour of the Qi is not magic side.

When you first learn any new sports you have to expend a lot of energy to make the movements, which are wild and uncontrolled.

The more you practise them the more economical - or tight and clean - the moves become. Also your fitness and strength improves.

You now need to expend less energy to make the movements.

Eventualy, you have tight, clean coordinated moves. You no longer need to throw so much energy in - and hence you now have leftover energy that you can add in, if you wish. You are in cotnrol of your body and now able to use power, rather than extra strength through over exertion.

You can say the same of tennis.

Of course, some people I've seen here like to cultivate their Qi by rubbing an old tree and then go round talking about striking with no contact. I'm more worried about people who hit the gym and train every day.

[Buddy]

I studied with Mark Sifu for seven years in my youth. Jake has the right of it. Look, I have nothing but respect and admiration for mark Sifu, She calls her studio Performance Arts. That school is gone but my picture was up there somewhere.

[Three Harmonies]

Careful! You agree with me and the whole board will hate you

[Shaolinlueb]

so like is this turning into a wushu vs traditional debate again? all those first gen guys form the shaolin temple era could fight. i went to china with one of the stars of shaolin temple, shaolin kids, and north and south. Hu Jianqang. not only was his modern stuff good, his traditional was good too.

but i agree modern stuff is nothing more than (shu) art with no (wu) martial in it.
but then again it looks like a lot of traditional systems have become that too. but then again the emphasis has changed in the past 100 years.

BSM only teachs an hour and a half or so from my house, but I never visited her. I have been told she is awesome, but thats about it. There are a couple good Kung Fu Teachers in boston i know of. her, a calvin chin, and winchow woo (sp?).

[Three Harmonies]

There is no debate. Two totally different focuses. Wushu is NOT a martial art. Period. By definition if you are not engaging in combatives then it is not martial. Wushu is a very beautiful, difficult, acrobatic dance form based off of martial arts.
I am very sure BSM is talented....... AT WUSHU!
Thank the internet for allowing any body to get on and argue non stop about things that are irrelavent. I don't see how one can argue "wush vs. traditional martial arts" when one is not even in the same category as the other!
But what do I know!?
Jake

[mantis108]

I think that it should be clear that Wushu basic is not designed to train Mantis specifically. Wushu training is ignorant of traditional value in Kung Fu let alone what mantis stands for.

Wushu people like to interpret other styles simply because they feel they can. But that interpretation is devoided of value other than that it appears to be visually more pleasing than the original.

Personally, I find that most of the time we are still treading the same ground with the traditional mantis. For at least the past 8 years or so not only are we not able to bring the message across that Mantis is combative in nature, in which case Wushu training isn't the substitute for proper traditional mantis training, but also that more and more people believe it's perfectly okay to do Wushu to "enhance" their mantis training. This to me is a disturbing trend.

Why is it so? Because in reality it is still a form dominated market for Kung Fu. It is as though most if not all thinks that we are aiming to better our Kung Fu through showmanship not combative. When's the last time someone ask how to do a drill properly, now to perfect an application, what principle is important, etc. I simply can't remember that being on here anymore. However, I see people asking who's form performance is better or who's interpertation of forms is authentic etc. Have we become that sallow?

Does this mean that the KFM mantis forum has reached it's maximum capacity or has it lost it direction altogether? Can we have inspiring and intelligent conversation like we used to? Is there no one interested in the core of real Tanglang Kung Fu anymore but we have to compare ourselves with Wushu the sport?

Mantis108

[Three Harmonies]

Great post Robert.
I think your assesment is too narrow.... ALL of Chinese Martial Arts suffer from this virus! Look at Taiji, Xing Yi and Bagua! This is not solely in the Mantis realm.
My personal take on KFO is simple.....no one is really policing the idiots that get on here and troll. Hence you end up with this result. Other forums I am part of (you too) are very strict in who they allow to post, and the manner in which people are allowed to do so.
The reasons shared here are prime examples of why the CMA are suffering, and will continue to suffer unless people start to change their attitudes in training, teaching, and sharing knowledge. Instead of resisting the MMA/BJJ boom, we should all be learning what we can from them, as they have set the bar in many respects that the CMA are not even remotely reaching!
But again, what do I know.
Cheers
Jake