What styles make up Kempo?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Hello all. I know American (Parker) Kempo/Kenpo has a Chinese influence to it. I was wondering if anyone knows what Chinese or east Asian arts went into it's development?

[Chosen-frozen]

Well, I don`t know about Parker`s system. I know his teacher growing up in Hawaii was William K.S.S. Chow, the same guy that taught Adriano Empirado, (who was one of the guys who founded Kajukenbo) and Sam Kuoha (who`s the head of Kara Ho Kempo).

But the word Kenpo/kempo is just the Japanese pronounciation of the characters for "fist" and "way". I think that it`s just a generic term like the Chinese pronounciations chuan fa or kun tao. For example, before they decided to use the name Karate the art Funakoshi brought to Japan from Okinawa was often reffered to as Ryukyu Kempo. And there`s a style of karate created here in Japan right after WW2 that had a big Chinese influence and it`s called Shorinji Kempo.

[Chosen-frozen]

I just remembered hearing that Parker used to visit Lau Bun in California from time to time to buy Jow, and the Lau liked him. So there might be some CLF "influence". But I`ve always heard that Lau Bun didn`t teach ANY non-chinese period.

[TenTigers]

Parker's teacher was William Kwai-Sun Chow, who learned Southern Siu-Lum (many say Hung Kuen) from his father Chow-Hoon. Parker also trained with Jimmy Woo and others, including Bruce Lee-you can see alot of cross influences in Enter the Dragon, and especially in the yellow self-defense book that Lee wrote. Chicken or the egg? . There are many Chinese influences in Kenpo. The newer versions such as those from Nick Cerio to Villari and onwards have less Chinese influence, even though Cerio recieved ranking from Chow(it was when Chow was much older) the further back you go, 50's and 60's the closer it comes to being Chinese. Chow also collborated with James Mitose, who added more linear and jiu-jutsu techniques. Look for the early Parker, Tracy,Castro,Ibrao,Chun, Ryusaki lineages.
In the older versions, many of the movements are right out of the Hung-Ga forms, in some cases, verbatum. Chow was a streetfighter, and took many brutal techniques and put them into rapid-fire blitzkrieg techniques designed to overwhelm the attacker. "Overkill is just enough" was the motto.
Don't judge kenpo by some of the stuff you see these days. Like Gung-Fu, you gotta dig through alot of dirt to find real gold.

[bakxierboxer]

I just remembered hearing that Parker used to visit Lau Bun in California from time to time to buy Jow, and the Lau liked him. So there might be some CLF "influence". But I`ve always heard that Lau Bun didn`t teach ANY non-chinese period.

SURE he "liked" him.
He was apparently more than willing to pay an absolutely OUTRAGEOUS price for jow.....

[bakxierboxer]

Parker's teacher was William Kwai-Sun Chow, who learned Southern Siu-Lum (many say Hung Kuen) from his father Chow-Hoon. Parker also trained with Jimmy Woo and others....
There are many Chinese influences in Kenpo....
the further back you go, 50's and 60's the closer it comes to being Chinese.......
Look for the early Parker, Tracy,Castro,Ibrao,Chun, Ryusaki lineages.
In the older versions, many of the movements are right out of the Hung-Ga forms, in some cases, verbatum. Chow was a streetfighter, and took many brutal techniques and put them into rapid-fire blitzkrieg techniques designed to overwhelm the attacker. "Overkill is just enough" was the motto.
Don't judge kenpo by some of the stuff you see these days. Like Gung-Fu, you gotta dig through alot of dirt to find real gold.

Hmmmm?
You might want to try asking someone who was there.....? (at least in the 60s)
Ryusaki was originally a student of Leoning.
The only guy I saw doing anything at all like H'ung Kuen was Johnny Mar (son of Sig Mar/Mah Sek of Suey Sing Tong)

[Yum Cha]

Parker, from what I know, also worked with Daniel Pai.

His only association with Bruce Lee was later when Parker started running Tournaments stateside and Bruce used them for self promotion. Parker assigned Dan Iosanto (sp?) to look after him, and we all know what happened next. No bad blood though, all cool.

Kenpo as I understand is the Japanese take on Chinese hand, Chinese fighting. A transition phase between Shaolin Kung Fu (whatever that means) and Karate (yea, whatever that means too...).

Parker's contribution is that he systemised it into 200 some odd techniques/combinations and built forms to contain them, based upon what he learned along the way.

Shorinji Kenpo is an older style, and a bit different. Don't know much.

Parker went seriously commercial in his latter days, granted belts to business partners, and eventually died young and overweight of a heart attack running or a plane. Sadly.

Some of the spin offs of Parker Kenpo have become testimonies to the ego of the students more than the style. Many have lost the 200+ techniques. Some do MMA and call it Kenpo, there are a few old school Parker Kenpo people around still.

It reminds me a lot of Hawaiian street fighting.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So does anyone know specifically what Chinese styles influenced parker kempo?

[bakxierboxer]

Hmmmm?
You might want to try asking someone who was there.....? (at least in the 60s)
Ryusaki was originally a student of Leoning.

Now that I 'm thinking about it again, Cerio learned from George Pesare, who learned from
Sonny Gascon, who also was taught (at least in part) by Leoning.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yes, but what are the STYLES?

[bakxierboxer]

Kenpo as I understand is the Japanese take on Chinese hand, Chinese fighting. A transition phase between Shaolin Kung Fu (whatever that means) and Karate (yea, whatever that means too...).

According to my teachers, the original Chinese characters for "kara-te" were actually different and were pronounced "Han Tsul".

Later on, as Japanese Nationalism became ever more dominant, the characters were changed to the katakana(?) indicating "Manchuria" or at least the "wasteland emptiness" that characterized it.
Today, some older SiFu will snicker if you tell them that your "hand" is"empty".

[xcakid]

Yes, but what are the STYLES?

Well, when I studied it.

The forms from white to purple were karate
Blue to Brown 3 were kinda made up but looked karate
Black were all Kung Fu animal forms so I am assuming southern. Matter fact the Dragon form looks like the one we use in my school now.

I learned a Choy Li Fut straight sword form.
I learned Yin Shou Gun
I learned a Northern Spear and Broadsword form


To simply answer your question from a former Shaolin Kempo perspective it is a hodge podge of styles that were brought in. Think of it as furnishing your apartment from various garage sales. It all functions as it should, couch in front of tv, dining table with chairs, but nothing matches.

[bakxierboxer]

Yes, but what are the STYLES?

I wasn't responding to you.

But, "Your guess is as good as mine."

Frankly, I don't see any.
The only thing I ever noticed was in Leoning's Kajukenbo, where we had a different way of forming the thrust punch.

I was "uchi deshi" (or what passed for it) living in Leoning's school.

Leoning and I were among Wong Ark Yuey's earliest non-Chinese students, and there was NO transfer.

Leoning ran entirely separate kung fu sessions on the weekends and had Wong SiFu out to "supervise" as often as possible....

[bakxierboxer]

Well, when I studied it.

The forms from white to purple were karate
Blue to Brown 3 were kinda made up but looked karate
Black were all Kung Fu animal forms so I am assuming southern. Matter fact the Dragon form looks like the one we use in my school now.

I learned a Choy Li Fut straight sword form.
I learned Yin Shou Gun
I learned a Northern Spear and Broadsword form


To simply answer your question from a former Shaolin Kempo perspective it is a hodge podge of styles that were brought in. Think of it as furnishing your apartment from various garage sales. It all functions as it should, couch in front of tv, dining table with chairs, but nothing matches.

That could very well be the case.
None of that was "around" ("open") "back in the day".

From another perspective, "kung fu" implies that you can actually USE your "stuff"........

[Black Jack II]

This is actually a really good question.

I think TenTigers gave a really nice background. Here is a good link on the subject.

http://kiyojuteryu.org:1084/soke/art...ultimate.shtml

Personally, I have always been fond of solid, old school kempo players and their systems. I think one of the best streamlined self defense systems around was McSweeny's orignal power hitting White Tiger Kenpo system.

As for Shorinji Kempo that is a different system I believe.