What styles make up Kempo?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Personally, I have always been fond of solid, old school kempo players and their systems. I think one of the best streamlined self defense systems around was McSweeny's orignal power hitting White Tiger Kenpo system.

Reply]
Yeah, they are solid hard hitting guys alright. The system is headed by Tom Saviano in Addison IL. last I heard.

[Black Jack II]

Yeah,

A friend of mine from highschool has his kid in the Savino school. I used to know the old teacher there, before Savino took over. I am not sure if Savino uses the original McSweeney system, or his own hybrid but McSweeney's core stuff, was simple and practical.

He taught point-shooting as well and was a serious bad ass.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I used to live with one of his Brown belts. Back then hew was teaching the form he developed for his Black Belt test, and Mcsweeny's material after...although his form was built on Mcsweeny's teachings anyway so ultimately it was Mcsweeny's method.

Those guy beat me senseless once about 8-9 years ago.

[Black Jack II]

Most of McSweeny's system is really stripped down circular power striking. I practice a few of his strikes to this day which I find excellent.

The system from what I remember had-

1. Crane Fist- Whipping circular overhand strike using the star of the palm. You can see Hackey use it to bring down that Sumo wrestler in one of the first 3 UFC's.

Excellent strike. When done right it feels like your swinging a forged pipe of bone.

2. Long Range Axehands- Not so much the short range Ax Hands used in ww2 combato but the longer verison of the same period and the one used by a lot of cma.

Exellent strike

3. Battle Ram Punch- This is the same pivot punch used by the legendary teacher of self defense, Charles Nelson. Used to the sternum it uses a double waist movement for power. I think this maybe one of the few straightline attacks I was taught from that system.

Excellent strike.

4. Upswings and Doorknocker- Hackney used this one in the same UFC fight and broke his hand. The Upswing knicknamed the "chinese uppercut" and it packs a lot of power but in my view is not as safe as a conventional western boxing uppercut.

Still it is a excellent and unconvential strike that comes up from a hard to see angle and packs solid power.

The Doorknocker is used from a handsup position, from what is called in some circles the fence, and when the attacker is close, you slam your knuckles/fist into his face and upper lip, as if you were knocking on a door. It is a close range strike and if done with correct body mechanics and a drop step it is interesting to say the least.

5. Eagel Talon-Standard eagle talon 3 finger choke to trachea, but this one is a little different, it uses just two fingers and goes deeper into the nerves/glands for a pain complaince hold. It's more of a pinching movement.

There are others but this is some.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the most common strike I saw them use was something they called a Tiger strike. It's similar to what Hackney used to drop the really big guy he faught in the early UFC, only it comes directly horisontal.

[Black Jack II]

I think that is the same strike, when I was taught it, I believe it was called Crane but I would have to check my notes.

Really nice strike with a lot of power behind it, only con is that it is not a good first pre-emptive and it is often a hand behind ass sort of deal, but man its decent in the drop rate factor.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I remember reading back in the day that the history of Japanese karate includes the following:

The word "Kara" in Japanese meant "China"...and "te" in Japanese means "hand".

So "karate" ORIGINALLY meant "China hand". (As in, karate was originally a Japanese adaptation of one or more kung fu styles).

But during World War 11 Japan was at war with China - and so for political reasons the Japanese changed the meaning of the word "karate" to mean "empty hand".

[tjmitch]

This is part of an old interview with GM McSweeny ( RIP)

Question seven: Kenpo's history tells us originally Kenpo had very few classical forms. We know Master Parker included six forms to this style after he came to the United States. Could you tell us how Master Parker went about creating his Kenpo forms and why he decided to add them to his system?
"When Parker came to America from Hawaii, he studied at Brigham Young where he got his degree in 1957, and as soon as he got his degree, he went to Pasadena, California and opened his school. He had not learned any forms and sets from Chow. He learned strictly self-defense techniques and sparring, so he was excellent in both. He created his short form one himself. Then he created another form called the Book Form, which is in his first book, "Secrets in Chinese Kenpo." It was a two-man form, that each man did individually, then at the end, they combined to show what the moves were for.

"In 1961 I went to Phoenix, Arizona after I had been with Parker for a few years. I was a brown belt. I trained with Bob Trias for a week because I was there on business. Bob was a former marine who brought Japanese-style Karate to America, even before Parker. Parker started Kenpo, but Trias, to my knowledge, was the first American Karate man who brought it to America. He started in Phoenix in 1955. He was a big fellow. About 6 foot 7, and 260 pounds. He was a hard hitter. Now with that kind of physique, you can understand, he would be going for power. So when I trained with him, he said my sparring was OK, and so was my self-defense. He had a high regard for the "Hawaiian boy," which he called Parker.

"But he said 'one thing you don't have, and tell Parker this, is that you don't have any forms'. So I went back to Parker in the summer of 61, and I informed him of what Trias said, and he looked at me, didn't say anything to me. The next day I was with him before training class, he looked over to me and said, 'You know, I've been thinking about what Trias told you, and he's right. I don't have any forms, I don't have any sets. Just some simple stuff I created myself.'

"Then he said, 'I'm going to solve this problem.' And within a month he brought down Jimmy Wu from San Francisco, who was a Kung Fu man, a specialist in White Crane and Tai Chi, and other animal sets, but he especially loved the internal arts. So, Jimmy Wu lived with Parker for a full 12 months. Parker paid his room and board, but unfortunately, not any salary, and that's why Jimmy Wu left us eventually, because he needed more money to survive and Parker gave very little, not enough for his needs, so he left.

"But before he left, Jimmy Wu created our forms. I was there when he created them, with the other belts like Al Tracy and Jimmy Ebrao and Rich Montgomery, guys who were my seniors at Kenpo. I was in the group, and we learned these forms together from Jimmy Wu. Parker learned the forms too, but then Parker made his own adjustments, especially to form one, two and three. He made more linear moves and some Kenpo moves in form two, but if you notice in forms four, five and six, they have the Chinese influence exclusively.

"I would say there was 90% Jimmy Wu and 10% Parker in those forms, and forms one through three would be half and half, Parker and Wu. But without Jimmy Wu, we wouldn't have had forms one through six, a lot of people don't realize that, and it's essentially Chinese and that's the basis of Parkers forms."

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What style/s did Jimmy Wu do?

[Yum Cha]

RD,

Here's some old school Parker Kenpo from Oz. Outspoken guy.

Look at the vids and tell me what styles you think you see. Looks like a bit of Hung, and a bit of Southern with a little Japanese flavour...

http://www.real-kenpo.com/ is the website

http://ca.youtube.com/user/crazydragonkenpo is the youtube account with a number of videos.

Some are "basic" but some have techniques, speed and power.

[David Jamieson]

I saw a video tat was a direct rip off of tiger crane out of one of the books you can get.

kempo that is japanese and american kempo are different.

japanese may be steeped in chinese, but is distinctly japanese in it's presentation.

american kempo is mishmash city and draws from all over the place as is the american way I guess. probably a better approach to martial arts as opposed to saying "only this is good because it's from the region of the blibbity blah blah" and other such nonsense as we hold ourselves to in the traditional martial arts.

[bakxierboxer]

What style/s did Jimmy Wu do?

"Jimmy" (James Wing) Woo?

I dunno...
If you're THAT curious, he's supposedly still around....

[bakxierboxer]

Look at the vids and tell me what styles you think you see. Looks like a bit of Hung, and a bit of Southern with a little Japanese flavour...

http://ca.youtube.com/user/crazydragonkenpo is the youtube account with a number of videos.

Can't really tell that from the sets/kata.
It doesn't appear to have any real H'ung/Hung Gar/Kuen.
("Hung"/"Hong" Flood/Red Fist styles.... I don't know them, but they tend to look "more Chinese" than that)
In spite of the fact that there appears to be an attempt to use a known "hand" from H'ung Gar, it is not done in a manner that I would say there is any "kung fu" evident.

The forms presented were done in a stilted "work your basics" pattern and manner.
"Tacking on" something that can "pass" as a TCMA "salute" onto what is essentially a "karate" "striding excercise" does not make that excercise TCMA.

[bakxierboxer]

I saw a video tat was a direct rip off of tiger crane out of one of the books you can get.

Of the "moves"?
I think I've seen "that one".... IIRC, it's a "rip-off" of the "apparent sequence" without knowing what the transitions between the positions are supposed to be.

kempo that is japanese and american kempo are different. japanese may be steeped in chinese, but is distinctly japanese in it's presentation.

True.

american kempo is mishmash city and draws from all over the place as is the american way I guess. probably a better approach to martial arts as opposed to saying "only this is good because it's from the region of the blibbity blah blah" and other such nonsense as we hold ourselves to in the traditional martial arts.

Aside from changing "probably" to "possibly", I can't say that I disagree (overmuch) with that "sentiment".

[Yum Cha]

One says its a rip off of Tiger and Crane, the other says no Hung Kuen evident.

Business as usual at KFO....