a clip to discuss

[aaron baum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6KjJ...eature=related

found this...

best

aaron

[Dan_chi_sau]

interesting clip, bit dark to tell but wasn't for me. Most of it seemed to go against wing chun principles e.g. chasing hands, not the body. They mostly seem to be hand wrestling. IMO only the guy in glasses about midway actually looked like he had the intent to hit.
Also the idea of 'when hand is free, strike' went out the window a bit. Due to all the hand chasing there weren't many free hands, energy all over the place, about a minute or so into it one guys hands ping off to the side, the other guy see's the gap, pauses for a split second, then holds out a nice tan sau.
A few times, some of the guys seemed to get rocked back at shoulder level, suggesting that they are using muscle power or wrong angles, which gets fed back into their shoulder, making them rock back. No use of root.
And my last observation, one guy laps near the end, big open gap upstairs, and as he strikes he leans right back. Even I'd be happy to be hit like that.
Like i said, not for me. But then as people keep quite rightly pointing out, you cant tell too much from a video. Looks like it makes a great drinking game, not much use in a fight.

[chusauli]

Looks like YKS/SN or Mai Gai Wong WCK of sorts.

Too much ladder climbing and driving without insurance. Very little power coming from the horse. Little control. Distance wrong to apply the WCK.

Quite typical stuff when I was growing up.

[KPM]

Looks like YKS/SN or Mai Gai Wong WCK of sorts.

Too much ladder climbing and driving without insurance. Very little power coming from the horse. Little control. Distance wrong to apply the WCK.

Quite typical stuff when I was growing up.

---I think there were several lineages represented. I think I recognized some of those guys from clips of the opening of the Yip Man Tong. None of them seemed to have a strong horse or good forward pressure. A lot of it was the "Chi Sao Patty-cake" that Terence has been writing against.

[Mike Sheng]

Too much hand chasing and weak stances.

[JLQ]

Mainly, the people featured on this vids are Mak Yiu Ming's students - at the end of the clip, he's the one demonstrating som saan sau techniques in a point format.

Lineage wise, he claims to be of Cheung Bo descent - although this is probably arguable (Cheung Bo style supposedly doesn't have SNT, CK, etc. and MYM sifu does...)

I'd say the Wing Chun Kuen displayed there is more of Foshan style flavour than anything else - although apparently in modern days the lines as to what is what are being blurred.

No distinct SN/YKS and definately no MGW style there... IMO, of course

Other than that, I agree completely with Chusaulei's assesment of the situation.

IMO this is a great example of what happens when chi-sau becomes competitive - a terrible mess.

Regardless of lineage...

[KPM]

[QUOTE=JLQ;858202]Mainly, the people featured on this vids are Mak Yiu Ming's students - at the end of the clip, he's the one demonstrating som saan sau techniques in a point format.

QUOTE]

Yeah. He is one of them that I recognized. I just couldn't remember his name.

[Liddel]

IMO this is what happens when people forget about what they are doing and where it fits into fighting. (if that is indeed thier purpose )

Its elevating chi sao into almost sparring which if you and a partner have an understanding thats where it could go, it can become a useful thing. It can bridge ranges together into one training platform if done correctly.

But here i see guys getting more intense and remaining in the chi sao platform where it becomes chasing hands and patty cake.

The structure and behaviour is different to that of my VT so i wont comment...but

If this happened in a fight where a minor pushing incident bacame more and more heated it would right away go to blows once someone upped the game like that.....

One can say chi sao doesnt provide a realistic training platform....
one could also say a hammer is a useless tool, if your trying to tighten a screw

DREW

[Matrix]

IMO this is what happens when people forget about what they are doing and where it fits into fighting. (if that is indeed thier purpose )

Its elevating chi sao into almost sparring which if you and a partner have an understanding thats where it could go, it can become a useful thing. It can bridge ranges together into one training platform if done correctly.

DREW,
I agree with this point of view. I would just add that I think sparring should remain as sparring, turning chi sao into a sparring defeats the purpose of the drill. Having said that, the clips that Alan Orr has on a recent 'chi sao competition' ( is that an oxymoron?) were quite good. I think Aaron did a great job of avoiding the usual shoving match and turning it into more of a sparring action. I know some purists may object, but I liked it.

Cheers,
Bill

[k gledhill]

Guys using wrists as the 'platform' for delivering force and resting it , leads to arm chasing , simply to place the force on the contact point ...chase, search...if the force is displaced by the other they aren't controlling their own arms and get taken with the force
no idea of elbow position recovery for follow ups , follow up whats that ? I'm just going to stick wherever that arm goes
classic ugly

the energy is at the wrists no thought for elbow control/arm alignment drills for free-fighting.

In a fight chi-sao is a point in space we enter angles offered by the the opponent's movement as we attack them. It isn't the place we go to and stay to adopt the facing drill as we see here.


chi-sao should be allowing you to hit another in 1-3 moves as you enter on them from space/face off .

Not centerline to centerline lead legs , going back and forth.

Play a game without a goal behind it and the game becomes the goal. "You cant touch me"


Imagine attacking from space ...you strike with all your force at the wrist relying on the contact you expect to support you ...what if the guy your fighting knows this and intentionally offers arms and removes them suddenly ?
what happens to you ? thats right you are exposed as an arm chaser

Are you attacking with both arms extended forwards as the drill front and center with force at the wrists seeking an arm to place the 'controlling force' ?
How are you taking the fight to the guy with energy at the wrists from hours of wristing practice ?

what are you developing if you are , have been all this time ?

Is your mind wrapped up in feeling things ?

[Liddel]

DREW,
I agree with this point of view. I would just add that I think sparring should remain as sparring, turning chi sao into sparring defeats the purpose of the drill.

Hey Bill, interesting point...

Depends on what stage your at .
Sparring and Chi Sao should stay seperate when your learning IMO, but IME there is no downside to melding platforms together once you have a stable level of VT.

I should make it clear that im talking about free flowing chi sao or Gor Sao as some call it, so its already almost close range sparring anyway...its not that much a stretch IMO.

Im not reffering to Chi Dan Sao or Poon Sao where it is a drill with repeated actions.

All it does it bridge between contact and non contact which IMO makes it more akin to reality and can make someone more able to force thier VT game on a non VT fighter.

DREW

[KPM]

I agree with Drew. Chi Sao is intended to train a very specific skill set. That is a skill set that should be applied in sparring, or the training is pointless. So it makes sense to begin to meld Chi Sao and sparring as you reach a certain level in the training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Meaningless chi sao vid. Much ado about nothing. Now if they were actually going for strikes to hard targets - and threw in some kicking - then maybe you'd have something worth watching.

Oh, but wait...then they'd be sparring.

[Matrix]

Depends on what stage your at .
Sparring and Chi Sao should stay seperate when your learning IMO, but IME there is no downside to melding platforms together once you have a stable level of VT.

DREW,
Sure, as long as both parties understand the name of the game and are capable of playing at that level. The purpose of the drill is to enhance your skills. On youtube you often see 'senior' people turning chi sao into their personal ego trip - pushing around some clueless newbie who's just trying to hang on for dear life. I'm not a fan of that kind of activity. Of course that happens in sparring too.

Bill

[Matrix]

Meaningless chi sao vid.

It can always serve as a bad example.
Bill