Great article about Judo...but applies to any martial art

[SAAMAG]

Well I can quote you directly:

---Yes! Thanks! Nowhere there do I say or even suggest that sport tournaments are useless!


As for Nastula, I should point out again that he entered MMA as a beginner versus very experienced opponents.

---And I should point out again that after winning something like 300 Judo matches straight....he lost when he competed outside the context of Judo. Therefore his Judo Randori in itself didn't seem to prepare him for EVERY situation.
So was it realistic? He faced someone that wasn't responding like a Judo player....and he lost. Again....this isn't and wasn't meant as a knock against Judo or Nastula. The premise originally presented was that Judo Randori training was more realistic and more useful than Wing Chun Chi Sao training. It ain't necessarily so!

Well...turn it around, how do you think a wing chun person with 300 chi sao matches would have done? Probably wouldn't have lasted a microsecond, same as how most wing chun guys have performed in MMA. So how does that look for wing chun as a whole?

I say this because most of the responses to this will be soimething like "well those guys weren't good at wing chun" or "the rules don't lend themselves well to wing chun" or whatever. The fact of the matter is, MMA is the closest thing to real fighting one can get to without really fighting on the street. The rules are so minimal that they won't make a difference to any style that enters. So what's left then?

The martial artist themselves. That is the single most important determinant of one's success or failure in a fight. Their conditioning, and training methods are more important than that style itself, though the style's techniques do play a role as well as there are some that are simply not condusive for fighting. But no matter what style it is; if you're fighting someone that eclipses you in skill level and experience, you're more than likely going to lose that bout.

[KPM]

Well...turn it around, how do you think a wing chun person with 300 chi sao matches would have done? Probably wouldn't have lasted a microsecond, same as how most wing chun guys have performed in MMA. So how does that look for wing chun as a whole?

----Let me try and explain it AGAIN! The Wing Chun guy wouldn't have done any better than Nastula. AGAIN.....my point was and is that Judo Randori was held up as a more realistic and useful training than Chi Sao. I simply used Nastula as an example of a guy who was at the top of his game in Judo and got beat handily in MMA.....which questions the premise that Judo Randori is any more realistic or useful than Wing Chun Chi Sao. Geez.....

[SAAMAG]

Don't get all flustered KPM, the rest of the post was an elaboration as to why I posed that question in the beginning...you'd seen then that was more of a rhetorical question to setup the explanation that it wasn't so much the randori that failed him, but that he was simply outclassed by someone who was better and had more experience.

[Edmund]

And I should point out again that after winning something like 300 Judo matches straight....he lost when he competed outside the context of Judo. Therefore his Judo Randori in itself didn't seem to prepare him for EVERY situation.

Keith,

Having 300 Judo matches or not, it was still Nastula's FIRST MMA match against Nogueira who had 25+ fights!

That is a massive difference in experience. Yet your attitude is that he should win it! If he went against another fighter with 0 fights, Nastula probably would have won easily.

Just doing Judo Randori to prepare for a MMA match would be completely inadequate AND I SERIOUSLY DOUBT NASTULA PREPARED LIKE THAT!

You'd be a **** fool not to spar in a MMA way when you have an MMA match coming up! JEEZ

The premise originally presented was that Judo Randori training was more realistic and more useful than Wing Chun Chi Sao training.

Don't put stupid Terence arguments on my plate but the difference is that WC is far more than Chi sao. Judo randori you practice pretty much every decent technique in Judo.

[t_niehoff]

----Let me try and explain it AGAIN! The Wing Chun guy wouldn't have done any better than Nastula. AGAIN.....my point was and is that Judo Randori was held up as a more realistic and useful training than Chi Sao. I simply used Nastula as an example of a guy who was at the top of his game in Judo and got beat handily in MMA.....which questions the premise that Judo Randori is any more realistic or useful than Wing Chun Chi Sao. Geez.....

Keith, you are comparing apples and oranges.

How is that any different than a really good boxer getting in and fighting MMA and losing handily? It's not because boxing doesn't develop realistic skills (we know it does). It is because there are more skills you need to fight MMA with than merely striking skills,and the boxer didn't have those other skills developed to the same degree as the MMA fighter he faced. Same with judo.

You can see that there are judo fighters that take their judo, developed from randori, and are able to use it in fighting. Karo Parysian, for example, has some wicked throws he uses well in MMA, and has a book out on the subject. Sambo, which is essentially judo-based (as is BJJ), trains in the same way. Now, not everything judo or sambo does makes the shift from the sport to the cage since the cloth is missing in MMA.

Your mistake is that you think it is training with a "resisting" opponent -- and both randori and chi sao are similar in that they are training with a resisting opponent -- is what produces realsitc results. But there is another component: it is that your opponent is trying to resist you in realistic ways. When you grab hold of someone and try to throw them, it will "look" like randori because people in randori are resisting realistically. Unlike chi sao, which if you take someone and put them in bridge contact and have them fight, won't "look" like chi sao. And that's because whenpeople playu chi sao they don't act, move, react, like "real" people. No one you everfight will respond, act, move, etc., like a a WCK chi sao player. Ever. For example, people won't try to stick, they won't use straight punches, they won't move like a WCK person, instead they'll grab you, they'll shoot, they'll try to run over you, they'll pummel in, etc. When you do chi sao, you are "training" against unrealistic responses. So all you can do is develop an unrealsitic set of "skills."

[KPM]

Having 300 Judo matches or not, it was still Nastula's FIRST MMA match against Nogueira who had 25+ fights!

---Let me say again....Geez!....... And I'm not flustered. You guys just don't seem to get it!

That is a massive difference in experience. Yet your attitude is that he should win it! If he went against another fighter with 0 fights, Nastula probably would have won easily.

----Nastula had extensive experience in Judo Randori and tournaments. Nogiera had extensive experience in MMA training and competition. Take Nastula out of the context of Judo and he didn't do so well. Take Nogiera out of the context of MMA and put him in a Judo match and he may not do so well either. So I will say once again: .....my point was and is that Judo Randori was held up as a more realistic and useful training than Chi Sao. I simply used Nastula as an example of a guy who was at the top of his game in Judo and got beat handily in MMA.....which questions the premise that Judo Randori is any more realistic or useful than Wing Chun Chi Sao.



Just doing Judo Randori to prepare for a MMA match would be completely inadequate

---Exactly! As I have said.....both Judo Randori and Wing Chun Chi Sao are intended to develop a very specific skill set.



AND I SERIOUSLY DOUBT NASTULA PREPARED LIKE THAT!

---Here is where you may be wrong. I think that Nastula DID prepare like that, thinking as has been expressed on this thread that Judo Randori was realistic and effective training for all kinds of fighting. When he discovered that wasn't the case in his first match with Nogiera, he very likely went back to the gym and began to change and expand his training methods. Then he came back and started to win....as you have pointed out!!



Don't put stupid Terence arguments on my plate but the difference is that WC is far more than Chi sao. Judo randori you practice pretty much every decent technique in Judo.

---What do you mean? I've never said that Chi Sao was the be all and end all of Wing Chun training! And Terence was one of the guys saying that Judo Randori was good preparation for fighting and that Chi Sao was not. I've just been trying to point out that Randori has its limits as well and may not be all that different from Chi Sao....at least Chi Sao done as something more than "patty cakes."

[KPM]

Your mistake is that you think it is training with a "resisting" opponent -- and both randori and chi sao are similar in that they are training with a resisting opponent -- is what produces realsitc results. But there is another component: it is that your opponent is trying to resist you in realistic ways. When you grab hold of someone and try to throw them, it will "look" like randori because people in randori are resisting realistically. Unlike chi sao, which if you take someone and put them in bridge contact and have them fight, won't "look" like chi sao. And that's because whenpeople playu chi sao they don't act, move, react, like "real" people. No one you everfight will respond, act, move, etc., like a a WCK chi sao player. Ever. For example, people won't try to stick, they won't use straight punches, they won't move like a WCK person, instead they'll grab you, they'll shoot, they'll try to run over you, they'll pummel in, etc. When you do chi sao, you are "training" against unrealistic responses. So all you can do is develop an unrealsitic set of "skills."

---Hey Terence!
Thanks for elaborating on your point. I see what you are saying. Chi Sao is much more "structured" than Judo Randori, which makes it one step further removed from reality. But perhaps part of the problem is the duration of the interaction being trained. When Judo players "come to grips" in Randori, the interaction being trained can last for awhile as they try to get the advantage over the other person. So the responses and reactions are more realistic. But in Chi Sao, the duration of interaction actually being trained is very short. It is just that instance when the arms cross and you have the opportunity to "stick". Its not that the real Chi Sao skill being sought doesn't transfer over to fighting, its just that that skill isn't the "patty cakes" we see so often. That skill is the ability to immediately sense and respond to the opponent's force upon establishing a "bridge." And THAT happens very quickly and then it passes. So in order to put something that happens so quickly into a drill, the drill must be structured to allow for those opportunities and emphasize the range at which they occur. So the structure itself creates a situation where the opponent/partner is not responding in exactly a "realistic" fashion, but he IS providing contact and energy along various lines that the other person must sense and react to. That ability to sense and react is the skill being trained, regardless of what the other person is doing to bring out those reactions. But I agree with you that without the context of sparring/fighting informing what is going on in Chi Sao it loses its focus and intent and becomes more and more "Wing Chun specific" and a game of "patty cakes."

[k gledhill]

Chi-sao is misunderstood .

[Edmund]

---Here is where you may be wrong. I think that Nastula DID prepare like that, thinking as has been expressed on this thread that Judo Randori was realistic and effective training for all kinds of fighting. When he discovered that wasn't the case in his first match with Nogiera, he very likely went back to the gym and began to change and expand his training methods. Then he came back and started to win....as you have pointed out!!

I think you should watch the match. He was ground and pounding for half the match. He showed the same skills as a lot of MMA people. He lost because he gassed late in the 10 minute round. He didn't have the match experience of Nogueira.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xyu...astula_extreme

You can still see his judo skills though.
He did well for his first fight. He reversed Nogueira on the ground a few times.

---What do you mean? I've never said that Chi Sao was the be all and end all of Wing Chun training! And Terence was one of the guys saying that Judo Randori was good preparation for fighting and that Chi Sao was not. I've just been trying to point out that Randori has its limits as well and may not be all that different from Chi Sao....at least Chi Sao done as something more than "patty cakes."

You can't do just Judo Randori to prepare for a MMA match. I don't think even Terence said anything that lame.

[KPM]

You can't do just Judo Randori to prepare for a MMA match. I don't think even Terence said anything that lame.

And neither did I!