Why you don't need forms...

[mawali]

Shuaijiao is as excellent an art after 3 years study because all the pre-requisite shenfa and liangong training methods are contained therin and there is no qi BS or learnign form after form and still be clueless as to martial spirit and understanding!

[David Jamieson]

ok, now you are dealing with the parameters of the context: in other words, a combination of a few techniques done against pads could be construed as "form", but the difference is that there is resistance, there is a limit to the # of moves, and there is no belief that you are doing one thing while "secretly" training to do another;

well, not exactly what I was saying.

people get all caught up in the idea that forms are 100+move dance routines from given styles of martial arts.
there are very simple forms that have maybe 5 moves, albeit repeated that are merely "drills" of combination techniques.

when boxers do routines of jab jab, jab cross, jab cross hook uppercut etc etc and drill those techs, this is tantamount to forms with a limited variety of techniques due to the fact that those are the allowable techniques in the sport of boxing.

when you drill structure and technique together, you are working on teh shape of the technique, you are working on form.

whether or not you apply more is the only difference between schools.

everyone practices form no matter what the martial art. You cannot have technique without shape and practice of that shape whether its one move or 20.

[shadowlin]

1. Tony Jaa has "forms" that "look cool" and tranlate to "cinematic imitation by real-life MA's" who have "unreal expectations" of "forms" that "look cool". I agree he's fantastically talented. He's in great shape, he "looks" like he hits hard, and he can do great gymnastics. But he practiced wushu, capoeira, and parkour. Then, he and Panni Rittikrai decided--hey, what if we made Muay Thai "LOOK LIKE IT WAS THE COOLEST", and they tailored it up with the frills and lace of parkour, wushu, gymnastics, and capoeira.

But if you stuck him in the ring with the average fifteen year old Thai amateur, I'm not convinced he'd walk out of the ring with both legs intact. Again, the disconnect between cinema and reality is astounding here.

2. Bruce had forms, and sometimes he used some of the movements in his movies, like everything in his movies, "BECAUSE THEY LOOK LIKE THEY ARE LIKE THE COOLEST THING ON THIS GREEN EARTH"....LOL....

Bruce hit bags, worked with live resisting opponents, etc. Note: He scrapped forms altogether. It's not that his forms made him great. Perhaps scrapping forms and fighting/sparring/hitting bags made him great.

I honestly am astounded by your belief that I was talking about their cinematic personas.

Bruce Lee was not the baddest thing to walk the Earth, but he was a fighter and was constantly challenged and his record wasn't too bad. It was actually, impressive. He knew more than just screen choreography. I don't think you can ever say what specifically made Bruce good except for his will and attitude. Anything else - and you have to admit it's true if you're honest - is opinion based on bias towards one paradigm or another. My paradigm says the forms gave him an edge in his foundation forming, and you think the edge came from his liberation from them. Are they necessarily mutually exclusive? (another point I brought up elsewhere)

Tony Jaa I have seen outside of the cinematic setting, and the guy has complete body awareness, and that's what I'm talking about. Fighting isn't all that matters. And my reference here is that his movements are only so good because of a solid mixture of forms in his foundational period, application, and proper exercises.

Last, though, is that I used those examples because people can picture them in their head. I could talk about Joe Blow, but few people know who he is, so what's the point?

Aside from that, SW, I made it pretty clear what I think of choreography in another post, you should read it, because there is no disconnect... I don't see choreography as equal to UFC. I addressed this elsewhere.

[shadowlin]

well, not exactly what I was saying.

people get all caught up in the idea that forms are 100+move dance routines from given styles of martial arts.
there are very simple forms that have maybe 5 moves, albeit repeated that are merely "drills" of combination techniques.

when boxers do routines of jab jab, jab cross, jab cross hook uppercut etc etc and drill those techs, this is tantamount to forms with a limited variety of techniques due to the fact that those are the allowable techniques in the sport of boxing.

when you drill structure and technique together, you are working on teh shape of the technique, you are working on form.

whether or not you apply more is the only difference between schools.

everyone practices form no matter what the martial art. You cannot have technique without shape and practice of that shape whether its one move or 20.

Exactly. Thank you.

[Samurai Jack]

well, not exactly what I was saying.

people get all caught up in the idea that forms are 100+move dance routines from given styles of martial arts.
there are very simple forms that have maybe 5 moves, albeit repeated that are merely "drills" of combination techniques.

when boxers do routines of jab jab, jab cross, jab cross hook uppercut etc etc and drill those techs, this is tantamount to forms with a limited variety of techniques due to the fact that those are the allowable techniques in the sport of boxing.

when you drill structure and technique together, you are working on teh shape of the technique, you are working on form.

whether or not you apply more is the only difference between schools.

everyone practices form no matter what the martial art. You cannot have technique without shape and practice of that shape whether its one move or 20.

Hear, hear. It's good to have gotten that out of the way. So often we get caught up in definitions that the original purpose of the discussion is lost. As has been said on numerous occassions, if you see a reason to argue about the need for forms, you don't understand what they are.

[kwaichang]

If the opportunity presents itself you will use the for 1,2, or 7 who knows how many tech one may use from the form.

I can just see some old Sifu looking at this BB and just shaking his head "they just dont get it" and laughing KC

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nice clip MK.
The kid had some nice skills, kept his hands up, punched like you punch when you are actually hitting something, I feel for his dad's knees !
LOL!
There are some very awesome kids out there, not just boxing or BJJ, but wrestling too and in Judo.
Its in the genes baby !

[jow yeroc]

Awesome! I think lil man is the bees knees. And while grown men are
yapping back and forth about forms, this kid is training and I'm sure neither
he or his dad give a s h it about anyone here's perception or conception of
"forms".

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Sometimes, we lose sight of the "mental" training that "good" formwork accomplishes.. depending on the form and teacher of course, the "solo" work trains the mind as well as the body.. everything begins in the "mind". Do your forms as though the were an opponent, fight as if there weren't anyone there.. which is to say that if we start reacting to the opponent they start controlling us.. be willing to be hit so you can execute your intent.. that is a core value of "form". that when you get hit, when you can taste your pulse, when your vision is blurred and your head is ringing.. the patterning of well trained forms kicks in, you are running on instinct.. doing something other than becoming a punching bag.. when your vision is blurred or you just can't "feel" the moment, turn a form loose.. if you have no options in reserve, your game is compromised..

Be well..

[Becca]

I meant in the same exact order as in the form; I could see 1, 2 maybe 3, but beyond that it's gets increasingly unlikely

So your objection to forms is that they are a string of drills strung together and executed the same way every time?

[shadowlin]

So your objection to forms is that they are a string of drills strung together and executed the same way every time?

If it is, that's ridiculous because forms should of course be broken up and studied, varied, and blended.

You keep the form intact for teaching, not for learning. Anyone here attempting to argue that fights happen as a form progresses?

[MightyB]

Prodigies are only prodigies when they are children. Eventually people catch up- and then they are just "normal".

All this doesn't matter 'cuz you can't know if he's tough. Some people are just tuff. He could have all of these fundamentals down and some other kid could just slam him into the corner and skull f--- him for the next 2 and a half minutes and his boxing career is essentially over if he's not tuff.

[monji112000]

So your objection to forms is that they are a string of drills strung together and executed the same way every time?

forms are like scales in music. Its fine to practice scales, but that alone will never even get you remotely near being able to play with band. Its true that many amazing jazz musicians improvise of scales, and melodic phrases , but these guys are often above the average person. without basic timing(rhythm) practice, and many other things.. you can't really improv with a group. Allot of people even skip the whole scale, and "technique" learning and just focus in the improv.. feeling things out.
some people just like learning scales and playing them alone.. thats fine too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Prodigies are only prodigies when they are children. Eventually people catch up- and then they are just "normal".

All this doesn't matter 'cuz you can't know if he's tough. Some people are just tuff. He could have all of these fundamentals down and some other kid could just slam him into the corner and skull f--- him for the next 2 and a half minutes and his boxing career is essentially over if he's not tuff.

Not sure what your point is, I mean, MK put the clip up, I assume, to show that forms ( prearranged choreagraphed moves done into the air) are not needed to develop skills.
Which is widely accepted as a fact.
Zero to do with "toughness".

[MightyB]

the point is that you can't prove or disprove the validity of forms because--- some people are just tuff.

It's like how everyone is raging about the effectiveness of MMA 'cuz of what they see on TV. They're seeing tuff people on TV and tuff people are attracted to MMA 'cuz of TV. Doesn't mean that it's the greatest schiznit, just shows us some tuff people wailing on each other. These people would be tuff no matter what style or lack of style you put them in. They're just tuff. We all know "that one guy" who could beat the living schiznit out of us no matter how much wrestling training, boxing, or karate we practiced. Well, that "one guy" is common and a lot of those "guys" are on TV doing MMA.