Pulling Back Punches

[couch]

I would love to discuss two different punching mechanics and if they are present in your WC.

For the most part, and what I have trained in Wing Chun in regards to how I punch is that I tend to leave the arm extended after a punch has been thrown. If the WC practitioner is punching a mitt, you see that they remain in contact with the mitt after the punch has been thrown. You can see this in Chi Sau a lot where the arms want to have their space and people leave them 'out in the game.'

In a boxing environment, however, you never see anyone leave their arms extended. They are always brought back to protect the chin and flank.

What advantages / disadvantages do we see here? If you were to throw just one vertical punch, would it be brought back for protection or not? Maybe one 'vertical jab' wouldn't be thrown on its own for you?

I've just been playing with this idea. I think that leaving the arm out there helps with the sensitivity part, but I worry about not bringing it back to protect my glass jaw!

Thoughts?

[SAAMAG]

I think that perhaps one of the reasons why chunner's may leave the arm out is because that's how most chunner's get their inputs--by feel.

They expect the punch to hit it's mark, if it is intercepted, that interception becomes the catalyst for another movement. It's the second trigger so to speak. If the punch is left out (which I HIGHLY recommend not doing) perhaps is it because the person "expects" the person to react just afterwards and they maybe expect that to be the next trigger.

Not sure...leaving an arm out is bad joo joo either way.

[KPM]

Hey Kenton!

For the most part, and what I have trained in Wing Chun in regards to how I punch is that I tend to leave the arm extended after a punch has been thrown. If the WC practitioner is punching a mitt, you see that they remain in contact with the mitt after the punch has been thrown. You can see this in Chi Sau a lot where the arms want to have their space and people leave them 'out in the game.'

---I don't leave my arms out there. But I think you are right that it may be a "residual" effect of Chi Sao training.



In a boxing environment, however, you never see anyone leave their arms extended. They are always brought back to protect the chin and flank.

---And brought back because the other punch is already going out! One out, one in....yin & yang!



What advantages / disadvantages do we see here? If you were to throw just one vertical punch, would it be brought back for protection or not? Maybe one 'vertical jab' wouldn't be thrown on its own for you?

---If I threw one punch I would retract it not only for protection, but because the proper biomechanics for good power release is to "snap" at the end and then relax. The relaxation phase produces better penetration of the target followed by a natural retraction. Typically though, I wouldn't be throwing just one punch. Like the boxer, I will be throwing combinations of punches until the opponent is either on the ground, out of reach, or has put up an obstruction. The only time I wouldn't retract a punch is when it meets an obstruction that has to be dealt with. That's when Chi Sao skills kick in. No bridge...just punch! Encounter an obstruction...make the bridge and cross it!



I've just been playing with this idea. I think that leaving the arm out there helps with the sensitivity part, but I worry about not bringing it back to protect my glass jaw!

---You don't need sensitivity unless you encounter an obstruction. When training on the focus pads, train to generate and release optimal power. Stiffening the arm to leave it against the mitt doesn't do that. Save the sensitivity training for Chi Sao. At least that's my opinion, for what its worth.

[couch]

It also might have to do with ranges as well. Really letting that chain punch extend, thinking it is designed for a longer range than perhaps designed (going back to that other thread on this topic b/w Vankuen and T).

[SAAMAG]

That's a thought as well. Could be how someone is using the punch. I personally think that if something works...great! If it doesn't than it's time to adapt. Some people can pull off lin wan kuen from far away, some can't. You just have to know when you need more practice to make something work or when it's time to call it quits and move on.

[Liddel]

Extending is one thing and i think may come naturally espesially when you are tired/gassed, leaving an arm out after it surved its purpose is another thing all together IME.

I heavily rely on the elbow for several reasons the two most obvious being structure and power in arm actions, both in defence and attack.

Generally speaking -
In defence it helps create my personal space.
In attack it helps issue force. (that snap previously mentioned)

So with this in mind for my VT at least, leaving an arm extended is a no no.

In a striking sence it leaves me open to retalitory strikes and in a clinch (close range) sence it leaves me open to being grabbed and controlled.
loosing the initiative.

The same applies on the ground, even when im in someones guard and i have my forearm in thier throat and or are tweaking the face my elbow has a bend however small... you dont want to extend or youll have it broken.
and on your back even more dangerous.

So to me..... in all senarios i want to avoid it big time.

DREW

[Edmund]

What do we mean by extended and retracted though?
Retracted right up against your chin? Fully locked out elbow extension?

This ain't boxing.

[SAAMAG]

I was say that fully extended for wing chun is elbow locked. Full retracted is back to the man sao/wu sao setup.

[Edmund]

I was say that fully extended for wing chun is elbow locked. Full retracted is back to the man sao/wu sao setup.

So you don't fully extend your arm when you do a man sau?

[Edmund]

The same applies on the ground, even when im in someones guard and i have my forearm in thier throat and or are tweaking the face my elbow has a bend however small... you dont want to extend or youll have it broken.

Dude. You're fully vulnerable to getting armlocked whether you have a small bend or not.

Jujigatame doesn't need your arm to be straight. It can be put on when it's really bent (esp. when you're putting your forearm on someone's throat!). Once that happens, by the time it's anywhere close to straight, it's getting pretty late to do anything about it.

Sorry about getting off topic guys!

[Liddel]

Sorry about getting off topic guys!

No no i think this is valid..... its about timing.

Dude. You're fully vulnerable to getting armlocked whether you have a small bend or not.

Nothings certain but I get you.....

Although IME i would say your MORE vunerable

My point is about timing with regard to having my elbow straight or retaining an angle. Standing up or on the ground.

If my arms already straight i have no time to react. If its bent however small or large that buys me time...what i do with that time depends on my ability

Just like when im trading punches, im MORE vunerable to getting KO'd with an arm extended not protecting my body than when its in Bi Jong acting as another defencive gate...or head guard

Why give away more advantage than your forced to ?

VT = economic to me.

DREW

[Edmund]

If my arms already straight i have no time to react. If its bent however small or large that buys me time...what i do with that time depends on my ability

What I meant previously is that your "time" to defend the armlock is not governed much by the bend in your arm. It's your whole position that's the major factor.



Anyway, Pulling Back Punches:
Difficult topic. Honestly holding your arm straight after a punch is plain stupid so it's good advice to bend it BUT you're vulnerable just pulling back your punch also. You want to be able to change your movements as the situation dictates. You might land your punch and he leans back from the impact: You could stiff arm him and kick his legs.

[k gledhill]

I would love to discuss two different punching mechanics and if they are present in your WC.

For the most part, and what I have trained in Wing Chun in regards to how I punch is that I tend to leave the arm extended after a punch has been thrown. If the WC practitioner is punching a mitt, you see that they remain in contact with the mitt after the punch has been thrown. You can see this in Chi Sau a lot where the arms want to have their space and people leave them 'out in the game.'

In a boxing environment, however, you never see anyone leave their arms extended. They are always brought back to protect the chin and flank.

What advantages / disadvantages do we see here? If you were to throw just one vertical punch, would it be brought back for protection or not? Maybe one 'vertical jab' wouldn't be thrown on its own for you?

I've just been playing with this idea. I think that leaving the arm out there helps with the sensitivity part, but I worry about not bringing it back to protect my glass jaw!

Thoughts?

In training the SLT the Tan , Jum are the retracted positions for punches using either line . Ergo we retract back to a fresh striking position like fook sao . Fook sao trained as a 'chi-sao' event wont give you this thinking because your doing forward pressure 'wristing' thinking. The fooksao is our way of 'Elbow position' recovery back to the point of EITHER TAN OR JUM , NEUTRAL but retracted back to its 'holding position', not sticking to an arm thats raising it up et... but bringing back the elbow to take advantage of over extended arms
In Dan chi-sao when we strike over the arm for jum development and bong use , after the jumming punch has extended and been defelected sideways , its obvious we cant leave our arm in this vulnerable position so we rtract the elbow back down while using the bong of the partner as a 'marker' not a resting spot for energy coming out the wrist.
By developing this at an early stage one always recovers at speed quickly to take a line offered by simply 'holding' our own without force or attempts to stick or follow and arm leading redundantly applied energy to stick and feel.
The concept of swapping the lead for the rear applies in all things .
The extended arm may come back doing a jut[jerking] action as it x'es over a punch arm, as asimilar recovery of elbow positions, from chi-sao development of this thinking , not sticking.
All actions require we recover the elbow to work our idea in a fight.
SLT is this isolation time for elbow angles to 'spend time' inwards and using the introduction of tan, fook, jum, vu etc... in a repetitive cycle along the line.
Dan chi sao for individual training of elbow / pec /shoulder girdle muscle group contractions to train the arm to hold its defensive line. This pectoralis use of elbow position /alignment in strikes means we dont offer energy out at the limb of the arm to 'seek a platform to rest' only to strike with the hand with a loose wrist, loose bicep/tricep ...fook teaches recovery to an "I dont know what energy I need to hold what side of my punching arms line yet " floating / neutral elbow ..to much forwards pressure or a raised elbow lead to bad arm control when faced with an obstruction, the tendency of chi-saoers is to touch the others arm as a 'bridge' for contact so if I present an arm that they 'think' is requiring them to contact, by suddenly retracting the intended resting point of their energy focus they are moving in arcs and not striking in . coaching in chi-sao involves offering arms in strike line/angles, and suddenly removing them just to see if the focus of the attack is to go through my arm using angles and only stop if they have to..after all they havent made contact yet and shouldn't seek it.
It usually takes 3-4 attempts to get a guy 2-3 feet away to simply hit you and not fight the arm ...
1 punch tries to stick to my arm no punch focus
2 tries to punch but arm raises up ontop of my extended arm...no alignmnet control using elbow training
3 strike once again goes to push down arm AND hit , no force
4 focused mind strikes as it deflects....
sometimes it takes more tries , but it becomes obvious that the training of chi-sao becomes anything but trying to feel my arm

If I add sudden arm removal from a simple strike path it becomes evident they are anticipating making arm contact not 'just hitting' me and allowing the results to lead the next action...

The best way to describe this is when I taught guys to shoot handguns in the UK , I would put a blank round [snap cap] into a 38/357 revolver barrel, spin it like 'russian roulette' and hand the gun to learner shooter, they would shoot at the target 5 ft away while learning to NOT anticipate the bang [arm contact] and flinch off target, it was seen when they shot the 'blank' and no bang went off , and yet they moved the barrel down almost a foot missing the target alignment completely ...simply an alignment tool. Like shooting we don't use refined actions like using sights at close range , we point and shoot , so alignment is crucial to simply hit a target 4 ft away from you with an isosceles grip...similar triangulation to VT.
WSL used to get the 'idea ' across....offer blanks in the form of extended arms that suddenly disappeared from the intended contact search.
sounds easy
This leads to the guy not stopping to 'fight' the arm , and punch through the arm and allow 'whatever' to simply happen and fill the next strike from vu-sao not enter into a clinch if it can be avoided .Because the focus is to strike 'past' the arms using available 'angles' in the 'space we move the strikes and recovery lines along from training. If we adopt a feel touchy because an arm happens to be before us ...we go grab n clinch lop and waste time, become less efficient.

Imagine punching and the guy lifts his arm under yours and lifts your arm extended....do you react without thinking to bring it back ? that should be part of fighting training in close quarters to me.

Many good situations occur before us when we simply allow the opponents movement to open lines to us, because we trained to hold our arm space through training and not rely on another's arm contact for functional delivery of 'chi-sao' world techniques...we never have to make arm contact , rather strike through the holes in the defense by arm angles trained to recover and hold 'space' not feel things ..or chase them.

[t_niehoff]

I would love to discuss two different punching mechanics and if they are present in your WC.

For the most part, and what I have trained in Wing Chun in regards to how I punch is that I tend to leave the arm extended after a punch has been thrown. If the WC practitioner is punching a mitt, you see that they remain in contact with the mitt after the punch has been thrown. You can see this in Chi Sau a lot where the arms want to have their space and people leave them 'out in the game.'

In a boxing environment, however, you never see anyone leave their arms extended. They are always brought back to protect the chin and flank.

What advantages / disadvantages do we see here? If you were to throw just one vertical punch, would it be brought back for protection or not? Maybe one 'vertical jab' wouldn't be thrown on its own for you?

I've just been playing with this idea. I think that leaving the arm out there helps with the sensitivity part, but I worry about not bringing it back to protect my glass jaw!

Thoughts?

What are YOU trying to do with your punch?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Naturally, when you hit something, it hits you back, you "rebound" off of your target.
You don't really need to "draw" your hand back, you just have to NOT let it stay out there.
To leave it out there is rather "unnatural".
I have issues with people that try to "whiplash" or "snap" the fist back in a consious effort, these people, when contact is made, tend to lack power because of their lack of penetrating depth of "follow through", they tend to be, in practical terms, arm punchers.
Its all fine to snap these things in the air, but when you are actually hitting with full force and full speed, and having to penetrate with their strikes ( compression), things typical get "lost".