Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[kungfujunky]

hey ttm go ahead and post your thoughts here....im a big boy so no worries lol

i think i like the 2 blocks and then grab that i do as opposed to a step back with a claw strike....i like the aggressiveness of the grab and pull strike.

[Leto]

Here's some forms that can be found on youtube.

fei hu chu dong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZWsD9MN7c

si men tao lian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfFt2QVEwVw

If you like them, then I agree! this guy is awesome!
If you don't like them, give this guy a break, he's clearly just experimenting with his camera in his living room...
This guy is me

None of these are exactly as I was taught at CSC, but I decided to change the emphasis of a few things as an experiment, as you can all see. it's the same with all the other forms I filmed. The yang taiji is super fast, because if I did it any slower it would not fit on the camera's memory card (it's not a video camera, but a digital camera which can do short movies).

[naja]

So, as you step back you just strike forward with the left tiger claw ,are you using it as a deflect/block or a direct/ strike?? To the arm chest or face/ jaw??Are you pulling back with the right tiger claw?? Is this the obvious appl. and do you know of a hidden appl.?? I see the move as three different techniques happening in succession, prior to the three rips.

I learned it as a single action. Step back and set the claws, then go into the horizontal rips.

[BM2]

Hey KFJ, I applaud you having the guts to put yourself out there. With that being said, it's obvious that the CSC group is making some weird changes to their forms. Most obvious is the wavy hands in the tiger and the extra moves added to the tiger and seng mon ta lei.
Here's a written version of them both as I was taught:
Fefuchutung-
1. Step back with rt foot, left hand comes up, right hand makes a small counter clock wise circle back to right side.
2. three horizontal rakes.
3. step forward right foot, pull back left hand and arm break with the right.
4. pull with hands, and knee trap with left leg.
5. round house with right leg.
6. step into a cat with left foot forward, jump straight up and kick with left leg(no double kick).
7. step forward right bow, circle block with right hand, strike forward with right hand, stike back with left at same time.
8. double elbow up, double back fist
9. step up and then back with left foot to a right bow.
10. low back kick with left foot, step down, side kick with right.
11. without setting foot down turn, double front kick starting with right foot.
12. land in a left bow, three horizontal rakes.
13. step forward into right bow, chop to the neck with right hand.
14. rake up with right hand, then grab head and smash to the left knee.
15. step into a reverse bow, right hand blocks to the head, left hand strikes down.
16. shift weight to left bow, left hand blocks to the head, right hand punches down with a yell.
17. step up and bow.
Sorry dont have a vid. I am planning on putting some up. But I hope my written explanation is enough for now. This is how I learned it 20 years ago, and how I still do it to this day.

On #10, we didn't have a step down but jumped into the the side kick.

[naja]

On #10, we didn't have a step down but jumped into the the side kick.

I missed that one. We don't have a side-kick in that form. Those are two back-kicks straight into two front-snaps for us......

[tattooedmonk]

I learned it as a single action. Step back and set the claws, then go into the horizontal rips.

I learned it as; Bow, block w/ the( L) hand tiger claw , (R) tiger claw comes underneath and grabs the wrist in a circular motion as the (R) leg steps back into (L) side forward BS as the (R) tiger claw pulls back and the L tiger claw strikes forward ..........

[kwaichang]

Stop experimenting and go back to class. What is with all the loose trunk connection and stuff no where near the way I learned it. KC

[tattooedmonk]

I missed that one. We don't have a side-kick in that form. Those are two back-kicks straight into two front-snaps for us......

So, instead of a cross behind knee trap kick, side thrust kick, turn to the left, double front snap kick, you do two back kicks into two front snap kicks????

[Leto]

Stop experimenting and go back to class. What is with all the loose trunk connection and stuff no where near the way I learned it. KC

explain "loose trunk connection." feet and upper body not coordinated? too much shoulder movement? That is one thing I see to criticize in these videos. that's part of the point of making them, to get a third person view of what I'm doing. I watch it, and then make adjustments. almost like having a mirror.
They apparently teach things much differently out west than they do in the east, at least in the last decade. I don't think I'm ever going to be able to go back to class. I bounce some ideas off a couple people who practice different styles informally, but they're Okinawan karate guys, so don't have too much input for Chinese methods.

[kwaichang]

Come to Tennessee I will train you. You seem to be trying to generate Fa Jing but without the proper mechanics. I dont know how to say it. You are performing this loose trunk moves through out the form and the finish is a fist not open hand. KC

[naja]

So, instead of a cross behind knee trap kick, side thrust kick, turn to the left, double front snap kick, you do two back kicks into two front snap kicks????

Correct. Not the easiest thing to accomplish, esp. for me. I can only get my two back kicks to about knee height and still pull off the two front kicks. I understand the aim in those two to be to the groin & knee regions..... Hope that's right, cus I sure ain't getting them much higher!!!

[Leto]

Come to Tennessee I will train you. You seem to be trying to generate Fa Jing but without the proper mechanics. I dont know how to say it. You are performing this loose trunk moves through out the form and the finish is a fist not open hand. KC

Thanks for the offer. I don't think I will be able to come to Tennessee anytime soon, though. internet talk will have to do for now. At CSC, they do fei hu with an open hand at the end, at least when I was taught. The elder masters make changes from time to time, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is now taught differently again. As the lower belt forms were getting changed all the time, I don't think it's a big deal to experiment with them by performing things differently. The weird trunk moving you're seeing might be my Okinawan karate coming through, "koshi" hip action generating whipping power. I exaggerate it sometimes. When I was taught, we were lacking any sort of detailed power generating method, so my karate training naturally took over to inform some of the kung fu forms. I still practice my Okinawan kata as well, and it bleeds together sometimes. Sometimes I bleed it together on purpose, to see what I get. It doesn't always work

[Shaolin Wookie]

also i went over my notes and this is exactly how i learned it from my instructor at the time....could be a new twist....but ive sat on panels and GMS has watched this rendition of the form and didnt say anything about it?

so maybe it is an accepted change?

OTD......I have never seen it any other way. Some people do the wavy motions (I consider them up blocks/chambering motions for the X-styled strike that follows in the back-step to a left bow stance. BTW....this is one of the forms, if I'm not mistaken, that CSC does differently than SD.

If there is a fault to be laid....LOL...it's with that "keep the vid vault sealed" ideology. I don't think any of us have ever seen a demo from a senior practitioner in the art......EVER. At least, not done at speed. And a form changes 50% when speed comes into the equation. Going from A to B is always easy. It's the "to" in between that changes the form.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Stop experimenting and go back to class. What is with all the loose trunk connection and stuff no where near the way I learned it. KC

Dude, it's comments like these that cause people to clam up when time comes to share vids. Let's not deteriorate into name-calling and insults.

Where's the brotherhood? You'd think you'd have learned kindness with your practice........

His form is exactly like it's done in CSC's in Atlanta. I perform mine a liittle differently (fei hu....and my se meng tao lian is performed way differently than both of theirs, but it's the same form). If it's not like yours, get over it. Maybe you could learn something. We can certainly learn something from you....so, even better yet, post something.

The reason we're posting vids is to communicate on a more real level where something could actually be learned. I know, for this thread, it's a real stretch.

[Shaolin Wookie]

explain "loose trunk connection." feet and upper body not coordinated? too much shoulder movement? That is one thing I see to criticize in these videos. that's part of the point of making them, to get a third person view of what I'm doing. I watch it, and then make adjustments. almost like having a mirror.
They apparently teach things much differently out west than they do in the east, at least in the last decade. I don't think I'm ever going to be able to go back to class. I bounce some ideas off a couple people who practice different styles informally, but they're Okinawan karate guys, so don't have too much input for Chinese methods.

I can actually see the karate in your movements. It's as clear as day. Try to be softer, faster, and strike harder. That's all I can say. I can see, in your stepping, what an Okinawan karate teacher I knew and practiced with called "spring-loading the step". From that angle, it's good karate mechanics. I can't say it's bad mechanics for SD, because I've seen TKD and Karate guys adapt SD material to their mechanics and still hit hard. But, alas, it is somewhat incorrect, because you lose the rhythm and movement of the material. BTW, when you do use power, I can see it. Kicks look good. I'll see if I can get se meng tao lian and fei hu chu tung up soon.

Man, if I could grow hair like that....LOL.......