Grappling/Takedown Chi sao

[lkfmdc]

I think I recall the one of which you speak of.
The thing is, the key lock is one of the more tricky ones to pull off even on the ground, its easy to counter and most try to force it rather than set it up and it does need a good set up.

In Judo, ude garami is BOTH hand up an hand down... so sort of confusing

Hard up (near head) can be called top wrist lock, americana, paintbrush, or figure 4 (it is what the 2nd clip is using, yet he pulls it in the WRONG DIRECTION on teh ground) - this lock is commonly felt to be the sort of thing that steals candy from babies and nickles from paperboys (that is Gene LeBell's quote, I stole it!)

The hand down, kimura, double wrist lock is considered more versatile and more reliable

[HardWork8]

The comments from posts 23 up have been "interesting". I have a feeling that many of the followers of "Modern Cross-training is King" movement are not seeing the Wood For The Trees.

The question also concerns the validity of the grappling/Chin-na chi sao as a training tool and not any individual techniques that you may or may not consider "practical", which in most cases depend on who you are; "what you put in"; and the actual situation of the combat/encounter.

I practice this form of chi sao and find it to be a great training tool which familiarises the pratitioner to the various grappling/chin na possibilities and help them recognize the relevant opportunities when they present themselves, during combat (whether they are locks, breaks or takedowns), all WITHIN a Wing Chun context.

[MasterKiller]

Well, never is incorrect, very rarely, yes.
But I woudl agree that a standing key lock, because it is going AGAINST the movement, is not the best one to go for in that situation.
I have always said that, in terms of percentage, you are what you train.
I am sure that if someone trained standing joint locks and drilled them consistently and test them consistently, they could pull them off at a higher rate than most.
Its common sense.
Do people that advocate standing joint locks do that?
The vast majority don't.

Didn't Royce once win a fight by using a standing key lock to break a clinch from the back?

[t_niehoff]

I agree, but you need to remember that many moves are stuck in some MA simply because that can work on an untrained individual.

I think you may be right -- but that's a large part of the problem. You're doing something fundamentaally unsound and relying on your opponent being unskilled, weaker, drunk(?), slower, etc. and not doing something fundamentally sound. To me, this is not good martial art. That's just junk.

Bouncers use standing locks "all the time", to varying degrees of effectiveness mind you.

And if they do, they are taking a big risk (since those things are so easily countered).

BTW, from my observations, the bouncers here use a different strategy -- when things start to go violent they typically will have one guy wrap you (often falling to the ground) and then have several other bouncers come over and "escort" you out.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In Judo, ude garami is BOTH hand up an hand down... so sort of confusing

Hard up (near head) can be called top wrist lock, americana, paintbrush, or figure 4 (it is what the 2nd clip is using, yet he pulls it in the WRONG DIRECTION on teh ground) - this lock is commonly felt to be the sort of thing that steals candy from babies and nickles from paperboys (that is Gene LeBell's quote, I stole it!)

The hand down, kimura, double wrist lock is considered more versatile and more reliable

Correctumondo.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Didn't Royce once win a fight by using a standing key lock to break a clinch from the back?

It was a Kimura I think....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think you may be right -- but that's a large part of the problem. You're doing something fundamentaally unsound and relying on your opponent being unskilled, weaker, drunk(?), slower, etc. and not doing something fundamentally sound. To me, this is not good martial art. That's just junk.

Unfortunately, most people with "practical" experience have gained that against untrained people.

BTW, from my observations, the bouncers here use a different strategy -- when things start to go violent they typically will have one guy wrap you (often falling to the ground) and then have several other bouncers come over and "escort" you out.

Yes, and that is where I think standing joint lock work best, with numerical superiority and in a "controlled" situation.

[HardWork8]

I think you may be right -- but that's a large part of the problem. You're doing something fundamentaally unsound and relying on your opponent being unskilled, weaker, drunk(?), slower, etc.

Not really. You are training to see and recognize the opportunities as they present themselves.

Your intention may be to hit your adversary but if a grappling opportunity presents itself in situation which does not warrant beating your opponent to a pulp, then perhaps a lock is a better idea and I am not necessarily talking about that particular technique in that clip that everyone here seems to be so obsessed about either.

And if they do, they are taking a big risk (since those things are so easily countered).

Tell that to all the bouncers and law enforcement officers that regularly use those techniques. I am sure that they would be interested in your "fantasy" percpective.

However, and I do work in nightclubs, lone bouncers do use stand up locks successfuly on troublemakers and more often than you could ever imagine.

[HardWork8]

Yes, and that is where I think standing joint lock work best, with numerical superiority and in a "controlled" situation.

Striking works best with numerical superiority as well, making the introduction of the concept of numerical superiority to the argument by t_niehoff, irrelevant.

[t_niehoff]

Hardwork8,

I don't want to have any discussion with you. Take your views down to a good MMA school, good muay thai gym, and spar. See for yourself whether your theories hold any water. Show us all that you can apply any standing locks. I know you haven't done this because if you had, you would know better.

Having discussions about what you believe bouncers can do to drunks is meaningless. Next you'll be telling me what techniques you can use against little 10 year old girls. These things don't interest me. What interests me is fundamentally sound martial art -- things that will work against genuinely resisting opponents who have some decent skills and attributes. The only way to know that is from having done it, from having worked (sparred) with good, solid fighters. You haven't done that work, so you don't know. Your views are typical of the fantasy-based martial artist. As such, I'm sure you are appreciated here. Your theories will serve you as well as the death rays that you shoot from your eyes.

Theory and fantasy can't be refuted over the internet. Almost anything can be argued or presented plausibly, particularly to the inexperienced (who make up most of this forum). After all, this is why this nonsense sells -- because the people it is being sold to don't know any better.

There is a very simple fantasy filter -- if you can't see it for yourself in full-contact fighting, can't see it used successfully, consistently and regularly, against genuinely resisting opponents. then it is fantasy. So if you want to convince me this isn't fantasy, just show me that you or anyone can do it in fighting/sparring against someone their size or larger who is really fighting back. Since you can't do that, all your words, all your theory, is bullsh1t.

[HardWork8]

Take your views down to a good MMA school, good muay thai gym, and spar.

Why?

Have you taken your "views" to a good kung fu school and made a challenge and won?

Show us all that you can apply any standing locks. I know you haven't done this because if you had, you would know better.

Well, from what you said above, I sure know that YOU haven't!

Having discussions about what you believe bouncers can do to drunks is meaningless.

Assuming that all those who make trouble in nightclubs are drunks shows a lack of knowledge regarding the night club scenario. You don't get around much do you?

These things don't interest me.

Of course, they don't, because if they did then you would have used your valuable time practicing kung fu rather than some form of glorified kickboxing and hence WOULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD THE POINT OF THIS THREAD THAT WAS ADDRESSING THE RELEVANCE/IMPORTANCE OF CHI-NA/GRAPPLING CHI SAO IN REGARDS TO WING CHUN TRAINING AND NOT WETHER THE INDIVIDUAL TECHNIQUE WAS TO YOUR LIKING!

What interests me is fundamentally sound martial art -- things that will work against genuinely resisting opponents who have some decent skills and attributes.

This may come as a surprise to "functionally" trained kickboxers such as yourself, but most opponenets that you are likely to come across are going to be resisting ones!

"Decent" skills and attributes are relative.

The only way to know that is from having done it, from having worked (sparred) with good, solid fighters.

I have told many times before here in the Forum that we have WC sparring that is hard and as you would put it, "functional"!

Your views are typical of the fantasy-based martial artist. As such, I'm sure you are appreciated here. Your theories will serve you as well as the death rays that you shoot from your eyes.

Your theories are fantasy based from where I am looking. They will stop being so when you Terence prove your point by beating some decent kung fu sifus with your functional kickboxing skills.

Theory and fantasy can't be refuted over the internet. Almost anything can be argued or presented plausibly, particularly to the inexperienced (who make up most of this forum).

That is why I object to non-kung fu practitioners selling their methods to anyone who may be genuinely interested in studying TCMA. They just don't have a solid base of knowledge and that they talk a lot of, dare I say, "fantasy"?

After all, this is why this nonsense sells -- because the people it is being sold to don't know any better.

Exactly my point!

There is a very simple fantasy filter -- if you can't see it for yourself in full-contact fighting, can't see it used successfully, consistently and regularly, against genuinely resisting opponents.

And I haven't seen you beat any TCMA sifus IN REAL FIGHTS AND NOT IN COMPETITION SPORTS FIGHTING! Therefore what you say is just fantasy!

then it is fantasy.

Again, exactly my point!

So if you want to convince me this isn't fantasy, just show me that you or anyone can do it in fighting/sparring against someone their size or larger who is really fighting back.

Why don't YOU show me? Go and fight some traditional kung fu sifus in your local China Town and come back and tell us how you defeated them with your kickboxing skills?

I would still appreciate comments on what posters think of the CONCEPT OF GRAPPLING/CHI-NA CHI SAO as training tool for Wing Chun studies.

I would prefer answers from people who ahem, actually practice Wing Chun?

[Ultimatewingchun]

You're wasting your time, Hardwork...I don't read his posts anymore but I read yours - so now I get the gist of your back-and-forth with the guy.

He'll NEVER go to some "traditional kung fu school" and do what you suggest. Always quick to tell everybody else to go to some mma gym and do a challenge, though.

Don't waste your energy.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Btw, sanjuro...the top wristlock can be gotten with some misdirection as a setup and by grabbing him at the hand and twisting it so that his palm starts to face the floor...this makes the actual lock twice as hard to resist....

as well as always making sure you reel his arm in and then lift his elbow as you're pulling his entire arm down toward his lower body. (And use your chest and shoulders to stop him from lifting his elbow up before you've reeled him in).

All to be done when in cross chest position (side control), of course.

[unkokusai]

So anyway,

Any WCers here who actually grapple with non-WCers who have successfully employed this 'takedown' (or any other) live?

[anerlich]

Didn't Royce once win a fight by using a standing key lock to break a clinch from the back?

I don't think I've seen that match. However, I do remember Sakuraba breaking Renzo's rear clinch, applying a standing kimura, flipping Renzo over and breaking his arm to win the match. I mention the last mainly for those chin-na devotees who tnink grapplers aren't aware of the possibilty of breaks (as if).

I've seen people tap to standing wrist locks and chokes in BJJ. Not often and not against advanced practitioners, but it does happen, Standing guillotines happen reasonably often as well. A friend choked out a pub agressor with a standing guillotine not long ago.

My first KF instructor, David Crook, is very good at standing joint locks and chin-na. He CAN apply standing joint locks and incapacitate resisting opponents. But he'd probably hit you hard first (nidan in Goju karate, dan rank in JJJ, boxed a lot, his father was a British Army boxing champ and longtime judoka).

Canberra, Australia, Terence. He's only a small guy and approaching 60, but if you get in his face and push he won't just talk a good fight. A friend and fellow student mused that he had a need to inflict pain regularly and enjoys it.

David trained WC with William Cheung for a few years. But most of his chin-na comes from Northen Sil Lum.

I practice this form of chi sao and find it to be a great training tool which familiarises the pratitioner to the various grappling/chin na possibilities and help them recognize the relevant opportunities when they present themselves

Grapplers and MMers have similar drills, except they generally do it from the pummelling drill, or as if they were sparring light. You can wrestle and add takedowns, throws and light striking, standing locks and chokes if they present themselves. I'm sure every WC guy who has done some form of grappling from whatever source has tried doing sometnig similar from the "steering wheel" position. This is neither revolutionary nor original.

Your intention may be to hit your adversary but if a grappling opportunity presents itself in situation which does not warrant beating your opponent to a pulp, then perhaps a lock is a better idea

Careful. Youre starting to sound like your parroting the arguments of your enemies, the grapplers.

I am not necessarily talking about that particular technique in that clip that everyone here seems to be so obsessed about either.

You posted the vids. They're the subject of the thread. "Everyone" is discussing the subject. What did you expect?