Please look at this Shaolin Rou Quan 36 set, this is the main one that was absorbed by Tai Ji - Yang was shown the Soft Hands and that's why his stuff was different than Chen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puIJYVYgu_s
Look at my website and look at the comparison chart I give for the TJQ and Shaolin and Tongbei sets. You can see exactly what is going on in that part of the Yang Set that you are questioning: http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMA...risonChart.htm
So, this is the Beijing imperial guards style of Yang TJQ, they do many more sets than the other Yang TJQ styles.
Royal;
Found the first move of TZ Chang Quan in the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou,
"scooping moon from bottom of sea", it is called Lu Shou, "plucking hand" and it is used to enter into their Guarding position, same as it is used in TZ Chang Quan set.
Eric Horgrove;
I have a copy of ancient book of original 8 rows of Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou.
Email me and I will show you where you can get it online, Plumflower has it!
It's a must have item in your research!
All in Chinese though, with tons of info, and hand illustrated for each posture.
Excellent point!
Perhaps when the folk Chen village encountered this tongbei variant, they saw a way to integrate the basics (or what they saw as such) and got rid of 'unnecessary' hand flailing? too flowerey movements (at least shortened them) and lowered the stance(s).
The more astute the practitioner, the more they could extract and delete parts os a form to fit their own system! Just look at the finished Chen family style and how it engendered the many variants today.
Lest someone misunderstand this and make assumptions that aren't correct:
I've been practicing and learning CMA since 1975.
All the forms that I post about, I have actually learned and I only post about material that I have done at least for 10 years of time.
So, it's not that I am 'Comparing videos", I am comparing what I do in one form to what i do in another form.
I may show it to you via a video, but it's not videos I am comparing, it's real movements and postures in actual sets that I have hands on experience with for at least a decade.
Guess not to some people, I am very tired of people that know absolutely nothing about me, how I trained for decades EVERY DAY for 7 days a week, and actually learned the sets that I write about.
I wouldn't be able to say I think something is related to something else if I didn't know the sets I was comparing in and out.
This set amazes me:
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Is7fCc5wef8
People see it are shocked. But Hongdong Tong Bei has the same sets too.
Anyways, until we know for sure which came first the tong bei version of Chen TJQ version, then ?
Dr. Yan and other researchers have uncovered many documents from long ago that are pointing to a tong bei origin for Chen TJQ.
In 1991, a quan pu of Chen You Ben's was discovered and he clearly shows 4 sets of tong bei that Chen TJQ is derived from. Gives the names for the movements and postures, everything.
And, Tai Zu Chang Quan is one of the 4 sets.
Now there is a new mystery: how did Tong Bei from Henan that comes from Dong family get the same set that is known as Tai Zu Chang Quan at Shaolin?
Tong Bei Quan calls the set: "tai zu nan tang" instead.
Either way, it is proof of what my articles have been saying all along, that the Chen Yi Lu set uses the Tai Zu set as a frame to hang it's theories on, not the General Qi book as it is assumed erroneously by many.
Sal,
Yuejiaquan is from Yuefei's descendants (sons) not troops, that is why it is propagated in Hubei and Jiangxi provinces, I was in both Wuxue and Jiujiang as I lived nearby in Nanchang (which used to be called Hongzhou in the SOng dynasty and one of the frontiers during the Northern and Southern Song situation....
Cheers
Wu Chanlong
Note that the Ba Fan shou that you are referring was modified and redeveloped by Liu dekuan (he created a lot of things), and that was influenced by his other styles so the tightness and power of the originals have been modified.
As per the history of Bafanquan....http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/lineage.html
The eagles claw lianquan (and later Xingquan) are also derived from the same allbeit different.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=9sGIkkgMuXA
The Bafanshou of bafanquan as included in the below
http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/methodology.html
has some distinct differences....
regards,
Wu Chanlong
additionally these are also bafanmen:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xwP-Ckq8QMY
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=CeR6rsRYNuo
Last edited by Shaolin Master; 07-11-2008 at 08:44 AM.
Reply]
Just a collection of thoughts, and thoought provoking questions:
One possibility, the Shaolin Tai tzu set comes from the Tong Bei system because Tong Bei was used extensively by the military at the time. Maybe it was a key set to the Tong Bei system Zhao and all his Generals knew through the military?
Now, we may find that the Tai tzu set, *IF* it originally comes from this Tong Bei line may, have been named because Zhao Kuang Yin developed it (thus adding it to the line), and OR someone close to him learned it shortly after Shaolin developed it, and it got passed on as part of that persons Tong bei. OR maybe it became a standard set taught to the early Song Military after Shaoliin developed it and it was just taught with all the Tong bei the military was doing at the time?
Would this mean it is actually a version of that time period's Tong bei and not really a new style?
Question, did Zhao Kuang Yin know the Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set? Did Shaolin teach it to him after it was developed? OR did he maybe have a bigger hand in it's creation than we think?
Once it was developed, who would have it been taught to?
Maybe Zhao Kuang Yin didn't invent a style at all, and all that happened is Shaolin just recorded the same military Tong Bei style he and all his Generals did, and it just got named after him because of that?
In other words, there really is no Tai Tzu Chang Chuan at all, it's just a variant of Tong Bei that Zhao Kuang Yin happened to know and it was prominent in the particular military he was a part of. It just got a famous name because he taught part of it to Shaolin, and later sent Generals to teach them more...so it got named after him.
Last edited by Royal Dragon; 07-11-2008 at 08:54 AM.
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
For the Women:
+ = & a
I know that there is the Yue Jia Quan that comes from his sons lineage.
Scattered in Henan and other provinces there are also other styles called Yue Jia Quan or very similar names that come from other people that claim that their style comes from troops of Yue Fei, such as Niu family in Henan.
The material of these styles is not too different from Yue Jia Quan that comes from his sons lineage.
Some are a lot different.
The Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou I am referring to comes from the generation before Liu Dekuan, such as Liu Shijun, its from a different student of Liu Shijun rather than Liu Dekuan.
Also, I have a copy of manual that shows the first 8 rows of this Yue Shi Ba fan Shou.
Eagle claw as it is done today changed it a lot.
Also, it looks similar to but not exactly like the Ba Fan Quan sets in those two video links.