For Sal Canzonieri Re:Tan Tui

[mickey]

Hi Sal,

I was going to bring up the late Master Charles Chen. I visited him in Flushing Queens where he was teaching at the "Y" on Northern Blvd, back in 1984. I got to see a 12 section Shaolin Tan Tui that he taught. He referred to it as the original style. It contained a lot of double heel kicks and a nice blend of straight and circular techniques. I got the feeling that he kept the Shaolin he learned closest to his heart. Then again, that was only one impression from one meeting.


mickey

[ngokfei]

Sal

Thats an interesting thought, where did Mizong obtain their Tan tui.

r.shaolin

your mentioning the 16 road set now makes sense to what I had been told while at the HK Chin Woo back in the early 90's My translator simply stated that there was a training drills with16 lines but that it was replaced with the 12 Road Tan Tui.

Any clip or visual source for this routine Sal or r.shaolin?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal

Thats an interesting thought, where did Mizong obtain their Tan tui.

r.shaolin

your mentioning the 16 road set now makes sense to what I had been told while at the HK Chin Woo back in the early 90's My translator simply stated that there was a training drills with16 lines but that it was replaced with the 12 Road Tan Tui.

Any clip or visual source for this routine Sal or r.shaolin?

Hmm, MiZong was said to exist around the time of Song dynasty start, either right before or right after, by its own legends.
People stating hearing about it sometime during the later Song era, and then much more in the Ming times.
It traveled from Henan Shaolin area to Shandong province by the time that Muslim martial arts were transfered to that area as well.

Muslim Martial Arts come from something they called JiaZi Quan (frame boxing), which they date back to the Tang dynasty, since Chinese Muslims were heaving always in the Chinese military.

Misong has a Jiazi set.

Misong has elements of Tai Zu Chang Quan, Lao Hong Quan, and other unknown martial arts. One of them is based on Ape Monkey Boxing.

Yan Qing Quan is a branch of Misong, just another name for the same thing, but it branched off really early, so it is a different linage only.

Yan Qing Quan has a Tai Zu Quan set that they do.
Mi Song and Yan Qing share the cha shou and hooked hand movements (hooked hand movements also found in Yue Jia Quan of Yue Fei as well, which is from late Southern Song era)

Shantong Cha Quan system says that they created the Tan Tui sets in Ming dyansty to create an easy to learn foundational series, based on rows from their other sets in their system.

But there is this Shandong Long Tan Temple that has their own Tan Tui set.

That's the puzzle pieces!


Which came first? it might be able to be traced, if someone can see "who taught whom what, when, and where".

[r.(shaolin)]

Sal

your mentioning the 16 road set now makes sense to what I had been told while at the HK Chin Woo back in the early 90's My translator simply stated that there was a training drills with16 lines but that it was replaced with the 12 Road Tan Tui.

Any clip or visual source for this routine Sal or r.shaolin?

I suspected that was the case.

The purpose of these sets was to teach beginners basics, so the idea of them dropping this set in favor of Tan Tui makes sense to me as well. Although the first part of the 16 section set is not unlike tan tui, (sections 1, 4, 8, 10); sections 9, 12, 13, 14, 15 are advanced combos that beginners would have a hard time with. As well the length of the set make for a hard drill even for someone in shape. The way the set is done is back and forth for each section - making for a 32 section set.
Sorry no clips.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I suspected that was the case.

The purpose of these sets was to teach beginners basics, so the idea of them dropping this set in favor of Tan Tui makes sense to me as well. Although the first part of the 16 section set is not unlike tan tui, (sections 1, 4, 8, 10); sections 9, 12, 13, 14, 15 are advanced combos that beginners would have a hard time with. As well the length of the set make for a hard drill even for someone in shape. The way the set is done is back and forth for each section - making for a 32 section set.
Sorry no clips.
r.

I learned that form and it was just like that, very hard to master.
Master Chen said that most people forget it soon after testing for rank when to start to learn all the other sets (we learned Tang Lang Shou and Li Pi next).

Well, I did forget most of it, I'd like to see it again some day. It was a frustrating form, kinda boring and really difficult near the end rows as well.
Wonder where it originates from, besides just "Jin Wu" or Wu Tang school.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hey, I want to know the answers just as much as anyone else.

I have no vested interest in which one came first. I don't even like the CHin Woo sets at all.

Regardless of which come first, I'd like to learn which did really come first?

If it is the Temple in Shantong, which then went to Shaolin, who added two rows, which then was went to where?

To Chin Woo? But they say they started from Mi Zong 10 tan tui and
added 2 more rows after simplifying it.
So, that would either mean that Chin Woo 12 tan tui is not related to the Shaolin one, or that Mi Zong 10 tan tui is related to Shaolin tan tui, or even to the Long Tan temple in Shantong's original tan tui?


Most interesting is HOW MUCH Mi Zong has in common with Cha Quan system, very very strange.

The hooked hand and the Cha Hand (insert hand) the Cha Quan system is famous for and even a 10 tan tui, the Mi Song style had also.
Could Mi Song be a major influence on the early development of Cha Quan system?

(Cha Quan system always says that their 10 tan tui is just a simplication modern developed practice set that has pieces of their other sets to create a foundational set to work from in the beginning. If so, then how is their 10 tan tui related to any others at all?
Only way is if some pieces of Cha Quan sets came from Mi Zong influence?)

During the Qing Dynasty, Sun Tong studied with a Shaolin trained teacher named Zhang.

There hase been a connection with MiZong and Shaolin for a longtime.

r.

[mawali]

One of my teachers from Guangdong province sais that routines like tantui, changquan, tonbgei, etc transcend arts of various styles! The serves as training routines and are not speciifc for any art. It seems that each art has its own tantui that teaches speciifcs related to the 'specialized' style.

Difference provinces/groups have their own version and develop the training/application accordingly. Like islamic LongFist, islamic xingi, islamic tantui..
islamic shuaijiao....

[Sal Canzonieri]

During the Qing Dynasty, Sun Tong studied with a Shaolin trained teacher named Zhang.

There hase been a connection with MiZong and Shaolin for a longtime.

r.

MiZong and Shaolin, yes, always has been mentioned by either side that they are connected.

But what about Cha Quan system and MiZong?

So many martial arts from Shandong seem to be very much like MiZong for many reasons.

[Shaolin Master]

• Mizong/Yanqingquan does not traditionally have Tantui, these were added later and did not resemble the Jingwu set.
  
• Jingwu obtained Tantui from Zhao Lianhe (赵连合) who was not a Mizong/Yanqingquan practitioner. Set is as below:
  头路弓步冲拳一条鞭，二路左右十字蹦脚尖，三路翻身盖打劈砸式，四路撑扎穿撩把腿
  弹，五路护头架打掏心拳，六路仆步双展使连环，七路单展贯耳脚来踢，八路蒙头护裆
  踹两边，九路腰间碰锁分两掌，十路空中箭弹飞天边，十一路勾挂连环机巧妙，十二路
  披身伏虎反华山
  
• Tantui exact origins have many theories from both the religious (Moslem) to the Shandong and the shaolin vogue....irrespectively the prominence in Moslem styles and the resemblance to the row concept is a general depiction.
  
• The connecting pieces to Chaquan and Mizong/Yanqingquan are through Liuhequan, this only affected certain branches of Chaquan and Mizongquan such as the Zhang styles but not so much Li styles of Chaquan.
  
• Wan Laisheng's or Ziranmen Liuhequan is a derivative but is not as encompassing as the parent Liuhequan.
  
• Both Liuhequan and Chaquan are Moslem (Huizu) arts and the Tantui are part of their practices. Thus the saying "南京到北京，弹腿出在教门中" - From Nanjing to Beijing, Tantui came from the Religious (Moslem) sect
  
• The concepts of roads along the lines of Tantui are eminent aspects of Moslem Liuhequan this includes Tantui, Xinglong and Zachui as examples.
  
• Mizong/Yanqingquan was originally a mix of styles and therefore it contains many elements of others within, also absorbing further bits through various generations. The core though is still held.

Best Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Sal Canzonieri]

• Mizong/Yanqingquan does not traditionally have Tantui, these were added later and did not resemble the Jingwu set.
  
• Jingwu obtained Tantui from Zhao Lianhe (赵连合) who was not a Mizong/Yanqingquan practitioner. Set is as below:
  头路弓步冲拳一条鞭，二路左右十字蹦脚尖，三路翻身盖打劈砸式，四路撑扎穿撩把腿
  弹，五路护头架打掏心拳，六路仆步双展使连环，七路单展贯耳脚来踢，八路蒙头护裆
  踹两边，九路腰间碰锁分两掌，十路空中箭弹飞天边，十一路勾挂连环机巧妙，十二路
  披身伏虎反华山
  
• Tantui exact origins have many theories from both the religious (Moslem) to the Shandong and the shaolin vogue....irrespectively the prominence in Moslem styles and the resemblance to the row concept is a general depiction.
  
• The connecting pieces to Chaquan and Mizong/Yanqingquan are through Liuhequan, this only affected certain branches of Chaquan and Mizongquan such as the Zhang styles but not so much Li styles of Chaquan.
  
• Wan Laisheng's or Ziranmen Liuhequan is a derivative but is not as encompassing as the parent Liuhequan.
  
• Both Liuhequan and Chaquan are Moslem (Huizu) arts and the Tantui are part of their practices. Thus the saying "南京到北京，弹腿出在教门中" - From Nanjing to Beijing, Tantui came from the Religious (Moslem) sect
  
• The concepts of roads along the lines of Tantui are eminent aspects of Moslem Liuhequan this includes Tantui, Xinglong and Zachui as examples.
  
• Mizong/Yanqingquan was originally a mix of styles and therefore it contains many elements of others within, also absorbing further bits through various generations. The core though is still held.

Best Regards
Wu Chanlong

THANKS! That clears up a lot of things I was wondering about! Cool.

Yes, Li style Cha Quan looks a lot different, all three main branches look a lot different to me, they share the same set names, but their sets have many different movments from each other.

Sal

[Redfish]

Sorry of this is repeating anything I missed.

Mizong was Huo Yuanjia's style sure.

I live in Shanghai and have had access to the photos and records in the Jingwu society here, also to teacher Bao Wenguang of Eagle Claw who's teacher, Bao Yixiong, was a Chen Zizheng student.

According to this info, the 10 basic forms were derived from either Northern Eagle Claw or Er Lang Men.

Zhao Lian He is listed as teaching 10 basic forms and for his own style "Er Lang Men".

As for forms with the name Tan Tui, loads of styles have them. I have recently made a video that includes part of the Chaquan Tantui being taught in Shanghai here:

http://www.kungfuology.com/kungfuolo...park-kung.html

It's Zhongshan Park Pt Two , right near the beginning.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Lest someone misunderstand this and make assumptions that aren't correct:

I've been practicing and learning CMA since 1975.

All the forms that I post about, I have actually learned and I only post about material that I have done at least for 10 years of time.

So, it's not that I am 'Comparing videos", I am comparing what I do in one form to what i do in another form.

I may show it to you via a video, but it's not videos I am comparing, it's real movements and postures in actual sets that I have hands on experience with for at least a decade.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sorry of this is repeating anything I missed.

Mizong was Huo Yuanjia's style sure.

I live in Shanghai and have had access to the photos and records in the Jingwu society here, also to teacher Bao Wenguang of Eagle Claw who's teacher, Bao Yixiong, was a Chen Zizheng student.

According to this info, the 10 basic forms were derived from either Northern Eagle Claw or Er Lang Men.

Zhao Lian He is listed as teaching 10 basic forms and for his own style "Er Lang Men".

As for forms with the name Tan Tui, loads of styles have them. I have recently made a video that includes part of the Chaquan Tantui being taught in Shanghai here:

http://www.kungfuology.com/kungfuolo...park-kung.html

It's Zhongshan Park Pt Two , right near the beginning.

Er Lang Men is a type of Fanzi Quan, which is basically what Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou is too.

Hence maybe where there is some commonality seen, everything is drawing from the same roots?

[Shaolin Master]

Er Lang Men is a type of Fanzi Quan, which is basically what Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou is too.

Hence maybe where there is some commonality seen, everything is drawing from the same roots?

Sal,

Erlang Men is actually very different from Ba Fan Shou....and is a large system on its own etc. I presume you have not seen the Erlang Men system but rather a form or so that is called Erlang of which there are many within other styles.


I posted some clips of Erlang a while back such as the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIQNn...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIQNn...eature=related

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,

Erlang Men is actually very different from Ba Fan Shou....and is a large system on its own etc. I presume you have not seen the Erlang Men system but rather a form or so that is called Erlang of which there are many within other styles.


I posted some clips of Erlang a while back such as the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIQNn...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIQNn...eature=related

Regards
Wu Chanlong

Thanks, I was thinking of Er Lang Quan, not Er Lang Men.
The Er Lang Quan I was thinking of was part of the material that General Zhao taught in Hebei area, along with other stuff he taught such as Jin Gang Chui, and Fanzi Chuo Jiao material.

Looking at those Er Lang Quan sets on youtube, you can see some kind of similarity to movements also seen in Yan Qing / MiSong and also Cha Quan / Tan Tui.

Why are they so similar? At least on the surface?

But, there also is a resemblance to Fanzi too. Again, at least on the surface.

What's the history of Er Lang Men system?

Not all Er Lang Quan sets are from Er Lang Men system.
Same way that many styles have a Wu Song Breaks Manacles set.