Forget the History, Forget the Politics

[t_niehoff]

The posts repeat their oft repeated POVs. Thanks.
See no point in so called debating-no judges here
just a chit chat list.

joy chaudhuri

These forums are not for debate but discussion.

I find it ironic that people like you -- who haven't changed (grown) their POV in decades but still post -- comment on others who "repeat their oft repeated POVs". A great example of the pot calling the kettle 'black'.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I disagree. In fact, I think the focus on purely striking takes you away from WCK (and moves you toward boxing)...

WCK's approach is to control the opponent while hitting him..."


***IT SHOULD be evident from my last post that hitting him (without getting hit back) at such short range requires that you do control him.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And Joy,

Perhaps I find it necessary to repeat myself because no matter how many times the logic of the position is presented, some people never seem to get it. (Perhaps because they don't want to?)

[Wayfaring]

History is interesting to me because of interesting stories of humans and their worlds and accomplishments. However, I carry a low threshold of expectation for what history can accomplish beyond that. The philosopher Hegel stated this as "The only thing you can learn from history is that people learn nothing from history".

I think one of the compelling things I see is that it's not necessarily WCK that is becoming obsolete, it is training methods. The rise of popularity of MMA is causing a lot of smaller shows to crop up. These shows are a way a martial artist test themself and make a small paycheck that improves with success. The effect of these shows on a training team is that it time boxes someone's preparation of technique and fitness. They have a set date to be prepared. People with those types of immediate goals tend to raise up the levels of effectiveness and fitness of others who train with them. That urgency and improvement is compelling to people wanting to train. I guess what you measure and test improves more effectively than what you don't.

I don't know if I agree that it is history and politics that is the limiting factor here. MMA teams have plenty of their own drama and politics, and they like to tell stories too.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I think one of the compelling things I see is that it's not necessarily WCK that is becoming obsolete, it is training methods." (Wayfaring)


***I AGREE, but I would add that the whole "politics" of wing chun (which almost always includes a link to somebody's "version" of history)...the politics of it all contributes greatly to the lack of proper training methods.

And the point made about mma guys constantly setting goals to reach - goals connected to competitive events - is a good one.

I used to try and make the case around here for wing chun sparring tournments precisely because preparation for such events would raise the game of the participants - but people always found reasons why this wouldn't work.

Now what do I mean about how politics often subverts training methods? People often maintain power, authority, status, and in some cases, a healthy rice bowl ($) by taking the easy route regarding how to keep school enrollment constant and growing:

don't run a tough curriculm, ie.- consistent strengthening, flexibility, cardio, hard contact sparring - and risk getting exposed as possibly being someone who never did enough of that himself. But without the tough curriculum, and without some consistent testing of what wing chun works and what doesn't - wing chun risks becoming an anecdote in the martial art history books of the future, as I've been saying.

Some sort of organized and ongoing sparring competition events (and not chi sao events - which is another example of the easy way out, imo) would do a great service for the preservation of the art into the future; but a preservation that is based upon wing chun fight efficiency, and not simply some blind attachment to preserving the past intact.

In this manner, as time goes on, forms might continue to evolve, wooden dummy moves might evolve, body structure and footwork might evolve, kicking technique might evolve, and yes, perhaps even chi moves moves and strategies might evolve and change as well - but most importantly - the ART AS A WHOLE will evolve based upon just how effective it is given the conditions of today:

- how well does it handle the boxer type with skills...
- how well against the streetfighter type with dirty boxing skills...
- how well against grapplers who constantlly go for the takedown...
- how well against submission guys if it does go to the ground...
- how well against kickboxers, Thai boxers, kyokushin karate fighters,etc...

It's the politics of wing chun that invariably gets in the way of finding these things out with consistency - notwithstanding the fact that there are those schools and individuals who already do these things, and props to them...

but this seems to be a very small percentage of the wing chun world.

[Knifefighter]

Some sort of organized and ongoing sparring competition events (and not chi sao events - which is another example of the easy way out, imo) would do a great service for the preservation of the art into the future; but a preservation that is based upon wing chun fight efficiency, and not simply some blind attachment to preserving the past intact.

There is already a venue for this... it is called MMA.

[Wayfaring]

I used to try and make the case around here for wing chun sparring tournments precisely because preparation for such events would raise the game of the participants - but people always found reasons why this wouldn't work.

Logistics are tough with that - some of the larger martial arts gatherings can support that. The main argument against that is basically there are already venues for that in MMA and more general gatherings not focused on wing chun only. There are also other gatherings that support informal open mat time. But people do tend to only mix with their own little crowd.

It's better to get out and put gloves on and box with boxers, pads on and spar with MT guys, roll with submission grapplers, etc. That keeps egos in check. People learn to be really polite and not so opinionated. And develop better skills.

Now what do I mean about how politics often subverts training methods? People often maintain power, authority, status, and in some cases, a healthy rice bowl ($) by taking the easy route regarding how to keep school enrollment constant and growing:

don't run a tough curriculm, ie.- consistent strengthening, flexibility, cardio, hard contact sparring - and risk getting exposed as possibly being someone who never did enough of that himself. But without the tough curriculum, and without some consistent testing of what wing chun works and what doesn't - wing chun risks becoming an anecdote in the martial art history books of the future, as I've been saying.

I see your point here. That's really becoming true for all TMA's from anything I can notice. So the rice bowl protection is not going to work out well in the long run. There are TONS of average MMA schools opening up, BJJ schools, Muy Thai schools. Not so much for TMA schools, and its harder for existing ones to stay in business. They are all competing for the same market share. WWE fans and boxing fans are becoming more and more willing to shell out $15 to see a local small show card as entertainment (well the current economy is another story).
They all want to talk about the UFC, and local amateur and pro fighters. Inevitably the "how does my training compare?" comes up. The answer is either you have people at your school in local shows so you know, or you have to speculate some kind of answer.

The whole self defense angle also in our society is also a little less compelling - when you have teenage gang members with handguns on one side, and really terrible criminal legal consequences for fighting on the other side. The only way you can really safely get in a fight nowadays is in a small show, as crazy as that sounds.

Some sort of organized and ongoing sparring competition events (and not chi sao events - which is another example of the easy way out, imo) would do a great service for the preservation of the art into the future; but a preservation that is based upon wing chun fight efficiency, and not simply some blind attachment to preserving the past intact.

In this manner, as time goes on, forms might continue to evolve, wooden dummy moves might evolve, body structure and footwork might evolve, kicking technique might evolve, and yes, perhaps even chi moves moves and strategies might evolve and change as well - but most importantly - the ART AS A WHOLE will evolve based upon just how effective it is given the conditions of today:

- how well does it handle the boxer type with skills...
- how well against the streetfighter type with dirty boxing skills...
- how well against grapplers who constantlly go for the takedown...
- how well against submission guys if it does go to the ground...
- how well against kickboxers, Thai boxers, kyokushin karate fighters,etc...

It's the politics of wing chun that invariably gets in the way of finding these things out with consistency - notwithstanding the fact that there are those schools and individuals who already do these things, and props to them...

but this seems to be a very small percentage of the wing chun world.

I'm almost thinking it's like that book "Who Moved My Cheese?" Is the next wave of the future doing MMA training with Wing Chun methods?

[golgo]

I used to try and make the case around here for wing chun sparring tournments precisely because preparation for such events would raise the game of the participants - but people always found reasons why this wouldn't work.

What are your thoughts on the yearly Lei Tai competition in Hunt Valley, MD (that Master Redmond has posted videos of)? I have said before that I am very new to WC (less than 3 months), but I have set this as a goal for myself (to compete next summer). That may be an unrealistic goal, but I am always in favor of setting my goals too high rather than too low.

Do they have these types of competitions where you are?

[Knifefighter]

I'm almost thinking it's like that book "Who Moved My Cheese?" Is the next wave of the future doing MMA training with Wing Chun methods?

I doubt most MMA fighters would be interested in training this way.

[JPinAZ]

"I AGREE, but I would add that the whole "politics" of wing chun (which almost always includes a link to somebody's "version" of history)...the politics of it all contributes greatly to the lack of proper training methods."

This whole thread was founded on politics and political views (not to mention personal differences). It was a response to another thread regarding a seminar on history. To continue to complain about politics, other people's training methods that differ from our own, and how it is 'ruining WC' is no better (probably worse), and only promotes more politics.
Why not let personal differences go (and politics) and just talk about the training methods & concepts of WC and stop mixing the two? It would be a good step in trying to move atoward a more productive thread..

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I'm almost thinking it's like that book "Who Moved My Cheese?" Is the next wave of the future doing MMA training with Wing Chun methods?" (Wayfaring)


***I WOULD certainly hope so. Or perhaps we should say: Wing Chun methods using MMA-like training. Either way, I see three things as a possible route for wing chun to take in the future:

1) using mma-type training methods as a means of preparation

2) finding out that wing chun could blend well with some other arts as a mixed martial art approach to one's total package.

3) As knifefighter intimates, wing chun making its way into mma comps as part of a crosstrained art.

[TenTigers]

I doubt most MMA fighters would be interested in training this way.

that is not the point.
The point is-whether WING CHUN fighters would be interested in training this way.
Thus-becoming Wing Chun/MMA fighters, not the other way around.
The idea is to bring the modern,current training methodology to TCMA schools.
this has nothing to do with technique. It has to do with trainig and the willingness of the teachers to implement that training in their respective schools.

[Wayfaring]

I doubt most MMA fighters would be interested in training this way.

I'm not saying try to convince a local pro/am fighter to do chi sau sessions for an hour and a half and have tea. They already have their competition teams they are training with. MMA fighters are developed.

The pro guys get really fickle anyway, leave their teams they developed under and tend to gravitate towards privates with only the best in any category and having a select small group to train with.

If an existing WC school can get a group to train hands realistically and develop a team, that's the start. I'm sure most schools with decent wing chun could do something better than the scrubby MMA schools that are popping up. The next problem that will exist is quality control in so-called MMA schools.

I mean, you did a little bit of maybe not-so-great wing chun, left it and trained BJJ and MMA. That's not the only path. There's better stuff there in wing chun.

[JPinAZ]

I agree with hard-core training, good cardio, stregthening, etc for any MA. I am curious what MMA-training methods are WC player to take up?
Isn't it more the individual's focus and desire in thier trianing that makes the difference? I am not sure WC training methods aren't any worse than MMA, it's more the focus and intensity that matters most? (of course, along with trianing against quality opponents, but that's kinda the same thing).

I've met some 'MMA guys' that most likely couldn't fight thier way out of a paper bag, and WC guys that really can fight. What I am trying to get at is, I don't think it's really a fault of inproper training methods that are art-specific (but I would agree they exist), but more the mentality of the individual training - MMA, WC or otherwise.

[JPinAZ]

If an existing WC school can get a group to train hands realistically and develop a team, that's the start. I'm sure most schools with decent wing chun could do something better than the scrubby MMA schools that are popping up. The next problem that will exist is quality control in so-called MMA schools.

I agree 100% with this. I think this points more to the focus and intensity level of the training at the school and not necessarily a fault of the art itself.