Why Jiu-Jitsu is more important than Kung Fu

[TenTigers]

Master Killer sez,
"If you have Shuai and Na, your kung fu SHOULD be better able to deal with BJJ than more 'pure' striking arts. We all know most CMA places don't train with the same intensity as sport clubs, which is usually why they get stomped in competition."
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In principle I'd have to agree with that. Though boxers and kick boxers train it as well without training it per se. Just like they don't go on and on for hours about mechanics and just tell you to drop the knee and twist the waist to put the body into the punch.

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am I missing something here?

[TenTigers]

I hate to have to share my past as some sort of justification because it's a waist of time, I'd rather talk about new, current things. But, AGAIN, I trained Hung Gar and Wing Chun with one group 3 to four days a week for about five years. I trained Souther Mantis with another group for about 3.5 years during the latter part of that five.

Wing Chun was cool. Learned the first three forms and did a lot of chi sau (light contact) which I liked. My sifu taught me a lot of cool traps, etc.

Hung Gar, surprisingly, I did not like. At least the way it was being trained where I studied. Too much form. Too much weapons form. Students too caught up on being seniors based on form. No fighting.

The Southern Mantis was really up my ally with Sifu Mark. Rounds of bag work as warm up. The head gear and full sparring or head gear and full contact chi sau with quick stoppage. This training opened my eyes into proper training. I wish I could train with this group 2 days a week now.

Hsing-I, or, more importantly, my time with Master Chan, was priceless. And it cost me a lot in time, emotions, etc. It wasn't easy and I'd be lucky if I could say I got 5% of what he was offering.

All these claims aside, I do the best with what I got. I look for what I like or what I feel I need at the time. Truth be told, I think most good fighters are that way from the start, it's an attitude, a will inside. Now it's a matter of being a good fighter amongst good fighters. And then maybe one day a great fighter.

ok, well that explains alot. Now I understand where you're coming from.

I will speak no more on this.

[CFT]

I wouldn't say he has better Kung-Fu skills, because his fights-those that he showed, did not show Kung-Fu structure or technique. I am not talking about posing, but basic structural alignments that should be developed after years of training. His fights showed him up on his toes, all upper body, none of the sheilding he spoke of, and none of the techniques, but alot of wild swinging and punching.

but..

I would bet that Ray's BJJ technique shows all the proper structures and alignments a good BJJ practitioner should posess.

Sorry in advance TT for selectively quoting your post. But doesn't this raise a red flag for you and prove Ray's argument about return of investment (in training time)?

He has done what 2-3 years BJJ training compared to 10yrs+ of kung fu but shows better structure in the former. He has the same attributes, the same attitude to training in both cases. What is going wrong in CMA and how can it be addressed?

[David Jamieson]

The whole spirit and intention of this thread is "up yours" kungfu guys.

Ray doesn't get that people want their cultural trappings, their belts and their rituals, their incense and their lion dance and their happy dim sums with their new brothers and sisters. They want this mixed in with their training and would forgo the latter for more of the former. When people are ready to fight, they'll fight.

That's cool.

[Pork Chop]

tma cma and jma is gentleman's culture bjj is a bunch of ghetto dudes getting paid knocking out tma's until the ufc started blending muay thai...

I believe you have finally smoked yourself ret@rded....

BJJ is also considered "gentleman's culture" as Gracie Barra and Brazilian Top Team classes were actually held in gentlemen's gymnasiums. Average folks couldn't afford the training.
Luta Livre (Esportiva) was more for common folks and was a bit more eclectic in its background.
They often fought each other in Vale Tudo matches.

Funny you list muay thai as the end to "a bunch of ghetto dudes getting paid knocking out tma's".
Muay thai probably has some of the poorest practitioners in terms of monetary wealth.
We're talking kids getting sold into muay thai gyms in order to fight for money and pay off their parents' debts. The average muay thai guy in Thailand is not rolling in the dough.
It's pretty common for westerners going to Thailand to train to be asked "Why the heck are you doing this? You don't HAVE to..."

Judo's a relatively young art, but exploded in popularity quickly.
Judo was taught as part of public school for most of the 20th century.

Chinese & Okinawan martial arts have always had very family-centered groups.
Before the advent of commercial schools, it was usually more about the family or village one came from.

[TenTigers]

CFT-Ray addressed this.
Check your PM's

[Reality_Check]

There is no history of CMA masters taking on any challengers with weapons.

well....yes there is, but it didn't work to well so it never got passed down in the oral traditions.

No offense but this seems rather nonsensical. If it was never passed down in the oral traditions (and I'm assuming that by specifying oral you also mean there is no written tradition), then how can you state that there is history?

[David Jamieson]

No offense but this seems rather nonsensical. If it was never passed down in the oral traditions (and I'm assuming that by specifying oral you also mean there is no written tradition), then how can you state that there is history?

the failure of the boxer rebellion and their "spirit boxing".

[Reality_Check]

the failure of the boxer rebellion and their "spirit boxing".

Ah...I forgot about that. Thanks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the failure of the boxer rebellion and their "spirit boxing".

Failure?
Only in the sense that they lost and their chi didn't work and all their training was BS, other than that, it was a success.

[Knifefighter]

I've done it. Those who have the eyes and will to see it have seen it. It's never going to look perfect. Hell, the other guy is trying to break my structure and shielding.

Actually, my point was that you showed what structure and technique from CMA should look like in a real fight. The clueless, theoretical non-fighters such as Ten Tigers walk around thinking that CMA structure and technique is going to look what they think it looks like based on the theoretical postural non-fight training that they do and then put you down because of their cluelessness.

Notice how when I ask for an example of what "real" CMA posture and technique looks like under the pressure of fighting an opponent, they can never come up with a real example.

[bawang]

the boxers practiced choi lei fut tang lang mizong and tan tui and many more
honor harmony fist is a combination of the best martial arts at the time
thousands of kung fu masters died hundreds of styles went extinct please have some respect instead of saying the predictable "LOLZ THEY GOT SHOOT BY GUNS WHERES UR CHI NOW ROFL"

[TenTigers]

nice try Knifefighter, but no, once again it is you who are clueless.
Only an idiot, or someone with very little understanding would expect picture perfect structure to be shown in realtime. I expect this type of comment from a teenager, just beginning in MA.
hense, your opinions, which are based on your limited exposure to TCMA.
But frankly, you don't know enough to even have an opinion, let alone a voice on the subject.

However, Ray showed ZERO structure.There is a world of difference between having structure and technique, and being up on your toes, bodyweight past your balance point and flailing.

Granted, he did not have enough proper training under his belt when he went out there, and I am sure with correction by his Sifu, he would have made these adjustments, but he and his Sifu had a falling out, and he wasn't getting the support he wanted.
Training structure should be ingrained in the body, and yes, under pressure it will certainly not be ideal, it certainly will not look like a form, or a movie, or a comic book. Are you following me? But there will be some.

It should come through drilling. Forms can help, but are not neccesary. Boxers don't practice forms, but they are taught proper structure. You learn the stance, how to properly hold your hands, tuck your chin, foot placement-stance,You learn the jab, and only the jab, and don't go onto anything else until the structure (form) is correct.


Boxers certainly display structure and form. It doesn't all go out the window as soon as the bell is rung.
Why is it that you cannot make that distinction?

You of all people should know this. You cannot do contact stick fighting without proper footwork, and form-which would dictate your movement, striking, recovery, etc. Were you not taught this? or did you just pick up a stick and flail like a maniac? I give you more credit than that.
There is correct structure and form in grappling-even the simplest lock and chokes would not work if the form were not correct, yes? Remember when you learned your first techniques? Sometimes we forget what it was like when we first started.
again,
why is it that you cannot make this distinction?

What happened to you, Knifefighter? Did some bad man in satin pajamas touch you where your bathing suit is, and you are making a connection between Uncle Larry and TCMA? It's over. Let it go. You are all grown up now, and he can't hurt you ever,ever, again.
Now, c'mon, little soldier. Take a deep breath. Hold your head up high. Gimmie a hug.
(watch your hands, though)

[WinterPalm]

I think standing grappling and takedown avoidance/ability are the most important...if you can keep the fight standing and do your thing, good, if you can take it down and do your thing, good...but without stand up clinch fighting, you can't do this. BJJ is useless if you can't get to the ground, much like most stand up striking.

[Shaolinlueb]

bull****. you know this forum. it will only lead to the usual *******s,er, suspects shooting their mouths off.

oh exactly, and this is on what now, page 4?