I think Chi Sao sucks!

[GreenCloudCLF]

I may be joining late in the game. But short of practicing Chi Sao to compete in tournaments and win, I see no actual value in training it, from a fighting aspect. I see Chi Sao as a 2 man equivalent to forms. Here are some techniques you can train, but if done it will not teach you to fight. Where is the "live application?"

[Violent Designs]

By not doing chi sau the way 99% of WC schools do it.

You can still develop attributes related to bridging and seizing and control IMHO.

But you have to let it flow freely. E.G. you might start out touching wrists, but a split second later you may be clinched and getting elbowed and kneed. It's a transitionary position mostly, IMHO. I think from the position of a "bridge" you'll either be breaking the bridge, backing out or going into strike, or clinch/grapple.

[Buddha_Fist]

By not doing chi sau the way 99% of WC schools do it.

You can still develop attributes related to bridging and seizing and control IMHO.

But you have to let it flow freely. E.G. you might start out touching wrists, but a split second later you may be clinched and getting elbowed and kneed. It's a transitionary position mostly, IMHO. I think from the position of a "bridge" you'll either be breaking the bridge, backing out or going into strike, or clinch/grapple.

Wouldn't in that case be better to straight out spar? Why stand in front of each other looking like both of you gotta pee and rolling away the entire afternoon? Roll, roll, roll, roll, roll, roll, roll... This is fun... Roll, roll, roll, roll... Let's put on some music... Roll, roll, roll, roll, roll...

Why each of these actions?

I think that critique on Chi-Sao comes when the objective of every single component of this drill is not clear. That's why there is no perceived benefit - misplaced focus.

[TenTigers]

[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu;913326]
Chi Sao is a game. I hold hands with you...we roll them back and forth a bit...and then we say 'go'! And try to touch/hit each other. That's not even a good game

When does a fight look like chi sao? At what part of the fight does it resemble this strange drill? Putting our feet parallel to each other (sometimes with toes turned in) and face each other, squarely...and then I'll put one hand this way, you put you're hand that way..and then we'll do the opposite on the other side. We'll count to three and flip flop our hands back and forth...and then we'll begin to 'fight'.

I just don't get it. Oh, and I do get it..but I still think it's stupid. [QUOTE]

ok, I am not a WCK practitioner, I've done a little, so let me give you my view based on my limited experience and understanding. I hope the more qualified exponents can correct me if I'm wrong:

The drill is multi-layerd, and is taught in steps, just as learning any skill.

The first step is learning structure, alignment, etc. So the student is taught the bong-sao, tan-sao, and fook-sao positions, with proper structure.
The rolling teaches the transition from one position to the other. When you move from one position to another,(in anything, not just chi-sao) there are gaps during the transition. In between spaces, where you are vulnerable. The rolling is a method for the beginning student who is just starting out in learning this skillset, to check his position, structure, and feel the gaps during transition, and develop his sensitivity to maintain those structures so as to close the gaps.

The concept of lut sao jik chung (lost hand, thrust foward) is then introduced. This helps the student now feel these gaps even more, as his partner attempts to slip strikes through his guard during transitions and if his structure is out of alignment=fei-jang, cho-kiu (flying elbow, collapsed bridge)

Learning methods of leaking hand, running hand, various strikes, elbows, trapping, etc are then introduced. Trapping is not emphasized as much as being able to feel for openings and hit. If a trap happens, great, but the idea is hitting.


Starting out with the feet parallel trains the student in developing his structure even more, and learning to root. It is a beginning method used to teach a specific skill, and once it is learned, it is dropped and chi-sao is used with active footwork. stepping, angling, kicks, etc are all used in chi-sao. The ideal range in WCK is to have my feet inside your horse, displacing you, while striking. It is NOT facing you toe to toe.

You wanna learn to trap? Establish a bridge (like when you parry, shield or block a punch) and then go from there. None of this holding hands crap and facing each other .

Spot On, LPS! This is exactly what follows in the progression of learning.
The rolling, standing parallel, etc is simply a beginners learning syllabus. It is dropped once the skills are developed, and gor-sao is taught. Attack, bridge, attack, etc just as you said. It is simply WCK's method of teaching. Everyone has their own method-this is simply their's. Don't read into it any more than that.

What you see in chi-sao competitions, the three rolls and then GO, was put in place to establish an equal ground starting point, and, to make sure that it did not turn into a slugfest or slapfight.
The chi-sao comps are just to compete in this one single aspect of skills. It is not fighting per se, but gets pretty rough nonetheless.

I think it places emphasis on something the general public does not understand, and gives people the wrong impression.

In marketing, you have the USP-Unique Selling Point-what you do that makes you different. What separates your product from Brand X. WCK people showcase skills such as chi-sao, trapping,chain punches, etc, because it is what the general public can see as being different. So, it has become emphasized.
So the general public thinks this is all there is.

It is simply a vehicle to teach a skill.
You believe you have a better way, and that's fine. You may be right.
There are many roads up the mountain.

I am sure that people will take some of your points and work with them. Create a lab and work their skills from the clinch, and see what works and what does not work.
I know several WCK Sifus that train Muay Thai and boxing so that they may develop their skills to deal with them, as opposed to some that only fight against WC. I think this is becoming more and more prevalent.
I think that it is due to discussions such as these that opens people's minds to new possibilities and evolution of their training methods.

*again, I have only played a bit with WCK, and have only a beginner's understanding. I am certainly no authority. I am sharing what I see through my beginner's eyes, so don't take this as WCK gospel.

[Kansuke]

I wonder how many people have really learnt Wing Chun beyond a superficial point.

You mean, say, beyond two years of formal trainng? Something like that?

[Hardwork108]

For someone who has studied a "little" Wing Chun I would say that you have demonstrated more understanding of Chi Sao than most of the Kung fu "kings" in this forum, put together.

I would like to emphasis your following important points to the "confused" amongst the forum members.[I have added emphasis, with your permission]:

The drill is multi-layerd, and is taught in steps, just as learning any skill.

The rolling teaches the transition from one position to the other.

The rolling is a method for the beginning student who is just starting out [/B]in learning this skillset, to check his position, structure, and feel the gaps during transition, and develop his sensitivity to maintain those structures so as to close the gaps.

Learning methods of leaking hand, running hand, various strikes, elbows, trapping, etc are then introduced.

Starting out with the feet parallel trains the student in developing his structure even more, and learning to root. It is a beginning method used to teach a specific skill, and once it is learned, it is dropped and chi-sao is used with active footwork.

stepping, angling, kicks, etc are all used in chi-sao. The ideal range in WCK is to have my feet inside your horse, displacing you, while striking. It is NOT facing you toe to toe.

The above comments say it all. Chisao is a dynamic learning tool that includes stepping, angling and chin-na (in the Siu Lam lineage), etc. The higher level chi sao leads to San Sao (free hands).

The skills that chi sao develops include sensitivity, "softness", "leaking" and "listening", all of which are fundemental kung fu elements and are hence very much misunderstood by the none authentic kung fu practioner "kung fu-ists" here in the forum, with the resultant confusing (for them) discussions about this important training tool.

[AdrianK]

Wouldn't in that case be better to straight out spar? Why stand in front of each other looking like both of you gotta pee and rolling away the entire afternoon? Roll, roll, roll, roll, roll, roll, roll... This is fun... Roll, roll, roll, roll... Let's put on some music... Roll, roll, roll, roll, roll...

Because the frequency of trapping range is less common, its better to start out in that range, if thats what you want to train. Just like, if you want to train your groundwork specifically, you start out on the ground.

Specialized training is just smart. It is common sense to work on your weaknesses with specific training.

Otherwise, why do we bother drilling at all? Lets just ****in' spar til we all "get" it. *sigh*