How to defeat a Wrestler

[m1k3]

One of my favorite tricks is to make people think they are about to take my back while keeping an arm where I can control it. Then, while they are transitioning, they go up and over and end up on their backs in front of me.

I use that one also, the look on their faces is great. However the last time I tried it the guy who took my back weighed over 350 lbs. I trapped the arm and couldn't budge him and there was no way I was letting go and he wasn't going to give up the back so we spent almost the whole 2 minutes with him trapped on my back.

That was a long 2 minutes.

[m1k3]

What has worked for you in the past to defeat a Wrestler or ground fighter while using pure WC with out the usage of any ground techniques?

If you have no grappling skills and he has no striking skills.

If you are a better striker than he is a wrestler you will probably win, if he is a better wrestler than you are a striker then you will probably lose.

Thats pretty much it. Now if you have some grappling to supplement your WC skills you will be in much better shape. If he has some striking to supplement his wrestling then you are in bigger trouble.

The arms race continues to spiral upwards and out of control.

[SimonM]

Remember that even when cross-training into striking a lot of wrestlers are most comfortable at extremely close range. Fighting a mixture of grappling and striking with a wrestler means you may be able to expect elbows knees and headbutts to be issues...

Those are what you can sometimes get away with on the mat.

It's my understanding that Wing Chun prefers to fight close and capitalize on close-range discomfort so that may be an issue when fighting a wrestler.

[Wayfaring]

Hey Anerlich, Wayfaring, etc...

Check this out, since perhaps it's somewhat appropriate to this thread. Catch as catch can wrestling in Quebec, Canada:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh2vVndc1Ok

Good clip. Those guys are decent overall grapplers. Very active going after legs and toeholds. They would probably catch a lot of BJJ grapplers who haven't trained that kind of defense.

[anerlich]

What has worked for you in the past to defeat a Wrestler or ground fighter while using pure WC with out the usage of any ground techniques?

Nothing.

I generally try to make friends with other MA's and learn from them rather than having silly challenge matches.

And I don't beleive in "pure" WC. It stopped being "pure" after the pole was added to it. And even according ot legend it was always a distillation of toher styles.

[bennyvt]

ok let me just say i have never said that these things always work. There are things i have tried and have worked. Why look on a thread that is how to stop a grappler if you dont want some examples. All moves have a counter and if done at the wrong time are bad hence why most describe it like a chess match. I gave broad examples as there can be many changes. As far as not knowing much, some would agree with you. I did tkd at eight, judo karate and boxing while a bit older. I have done vt for over ten years and have been learning shoot fighting for a year. So i an no expert. But watching all the ufc's to date. King of cage prida etc i have seen many wrestlers and most cant strike for **** unless they have trained it. If they have them i wouldn't class them as just a wrestler. Shoot fighting is really catch as catch can and kickboxing. My mate alre did grecco so he does alot of clinching so i dont do it on him as he clinches them tries to take me down. And victor if you do catch them u would know farmer burns who taught the first gotch who in his course named the bridge as very important hence his 22 inch neck, he used to hang himself for money. Its not a magic bullet. There is none but i found that without changing my position it was a matter of time before he got me. Kimo showed this against gracie who only kept him on the ground by pulling his hair. I didnt mention the sprawl as every one who has watched a ufc would know the sprawl..

[SimonM]

ok let me just say i have never said that these things always work. There are things i have tried and have worked. Why look on a thread that is how to stop a grappler if you dont want some examples. All moves have a counter and if done at the wrong time are bad hence why most describe it like a chess match. I gave broad examples as there can be many changes. As far as not knowing much, some would agree with you. I did tkd at eight, judo karate and boxing while a bit older. I have done vt for over ten years and have been learning shoot fighting for a year. So i an no expert. But watching all the ufc's to date. King of cage prida etc i have seen many wrestlers and most cant strike for **** unless they have trained it. If they have them i wouldn't class them as just a wrestler. Shoot fighting is really catch as catch can and kickboxing. My mate alre did grecco so he does alot of clinching so i dont do it on him as he clinches them tries to take me down. And victor if you do catch them u would know farmer burns who taught the first gotch who in his course named the bridge as very important hence his 22 inch neck, he used to hang himself for money. Its not a magic bullet. There is none but i found that without changing my position it was a matter of time before he got me. Kimo showed this against gracie who only kept him on the ground by pulling his hair. I didnt mention the sprawl as every one who has watched a ufc would know the sprawl..

Honestly, no disrespect intended, but could you please rephrase this in a manner that contains punctuation that isn't quite so haphazard?

I am honestly having a difficult time following what you wrote there.

[Edmund]

And victor if you do catch them u would know farmer burns who taught the first gotch who in his course named the bridge as very important hence his 22 inch neck, he used to hang himself for money. Its not a magic bullet. There is none but i found that without changing my position it was a matter of time before he got me.

Because being pinned ends the match in wrestling bridging on your head prevents losing. For ground fighting, I don't think it's a good idea to bridge *on your head*.

Maybe 22 inch neck guys can give it a shot. Everyone else is going to get a wrecked neck over time.

[mjw]

Agreed, I still bridge however I keep off my head and do it with the shoulders sometimes to get a little extra explosivness at times. I wouldn't bridge on my head because it's a way to really hurt your neck though I did do it in highschool wrestling that way I wouldn't do it today.

[Kansuke]

Agreed, I still bridge however I keep off my head and do it with the shoulders sometimes to get a little extra explosivness at times. I wouldn't bridge on my head because it's a way to really hurt your neck though I did do it in highschool wrestling that way I wouldn't do it today.

Has your neck become weak?

[Yoshiyahu]

I have a question about Sifu's like Yuen Kay San, Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung.

If there to fight a Ground Fighter,Wrestler,MMA guy or BJJ fighter. With the current level of experience they had in their hay days. Do you think those Sifu's would be able to defeat most Experience and Highly Skilled Ground Fighters Using pure WC with out cross training?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by bennyvt
"And victor if you do catch them u would know farmer burns who taught the first gotch who in his course named the bridge as very important hence his 22 inch neck, he used to hang himself for money. Its not a magic bullet. There is none but i found that without changing my position it was a matter of time before he got me."


***Indeed, I am well aware of Martin "Farmer" Burns, and I even have a book filled with step-by-step photos of him demonstrating catch - including some photos of him working with Frank Gotch.

But this doesn't change anything concerning the limitations of bridging. It's a great tool - but don't make more out of it's uses than what is truly there.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I have a question about Sifu's like Yuen Kay San, Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung.

If there to fight a Ground Fighter,Wrestler,MMA guy or BJJ fighter. With the current level of experience they had in their hay days. Do you think those Sifu's would be able to defeat most Experience and Highly Skilled Ground Fighters Using pure WC with out cross training?

***NOT today's mma-type groundfighters, no...

The guys who can throw punches and kicks as part of a setup before they come in for a takedown would give these wing chun fighters you mentioned fits, imo.

[Yoshiyahu]

So you believe Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung at their top level of skill and physical fitness would be defeated against today's MMA fighters if they were at were at their prime today?

So you believe WC with out a ground game even by the most skilled Figther is uselss against a skilled Ground fighter who uses strikes to take you down?

***NOT today's mma-type groundfighters, no...

The guys who can throw punches and kicks as part of a setup before they come in for a takedown would give these wing chun fighters you mentioned fits, imo.

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
I have a question about Sifu's like Yuen Kay San, Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung.

If there to fight a Ground Fighter,Wrestler,MMA guy or BJJ fighter. With the current level of experience they had in their hay days. Do you think those Sifu's would be able to defeat most Experience and Highly Skilled Ground Fighters Using pure WC with out cross training?

Whats different with the ground fighters today than the ones in Wong Shun Leung younger years? Are the ground fighters today more skilled than groundfighters back in the 60's and 70's?

[Edmund]

So you believe Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung at their top level of skill and physical fitness would be defeated against today's MMA fighters if they were at were at their prime today?

So you believe WC with out a ground game even by the most skilled Figther is uselss against a skilled Ground fighter who uses strikes to take you down?

Whats different with the ground fighters today than the ones in Wong Shun Leung younger years? Are the ground fighters today more skilled than groundfighters back in the 60's and 70's?

Today's MMA fighters are trained in ground and standup.

If you don't know any ground skills you are absolutely screwed if you end up on the ground. So if the guy knows you completely suck on the ground he's going to do his best to exploit that. He's going to be trying to take you down.

Unless you do some training against partners good at takedowns, how are you going to be prepared for the guy's best strategy? That is CROSSTRAINING.

You want to hero worship two dead guys like they could never be beat?
Anyone can be. Just takes the right strategy and opportunity to use it.