The role of traditional hierarchies in kung fu schools..what's the fuking point

[lkfmdc]

All asian Martial arts are products of their cultures, and those cultures are very influenced by Confucian familial structures. In the case of TCMA the need for acceptance from the general population lead to an over the top embracing of that structure

[iron_silk]

Actually the beautiful thing about the Chinese traditional hierachies is in name.

The relationship established between Older and younger Martial brother or sister sets when they arrive into the school and NOT their ability or skill level.

Unlike ranking which you can move up or down depending on your ability, because your older martial brother will always be there before regardless of your ability surpassing them or not. (Unless they leave the school then that's a different issue)

With the modern way of testing and geting coloured belt or sash...that's about ability and you can be white or yellow for YEARS...unlike you get the material.

It's really a family thing...NOT a ranking thing.

At least that's how I see it.

[Lucas]

Actually the beautiful thing about the Chinese traditional hierachies is in name.

The relationship established between Older and younger Martial brother or sister sets when they arrive into the school and NOT their ability or skill level.

Unlike ranking which you can move up or down depending on your ability, because your older martial brother will always be there before regardless of your ability surpassing them or not. (Unless they leave the school then that's a different issue)

With the modern way of testing and geting coloured belt or sash...that's about ability and you can be white or yellow for YEARS...unlike you get the material.

It's really a family thing...NOT a ranking thing.

At least that's how I see it.

I agree, this hierarchies werent developed with the modernization of martial arts training, globally. they were developed to be used in the culture and environment that they prooved usefull in.

similarly, we could not expect many asian cultures to adopt or fully understand the way many westerners handle their family affairs.

[Violent Designs]

This is something that maybe people grow up in Western society do not understand?

Confucian value are very important, in Chinese martial art, I think., ..

[Lucas]

This is something that maybe people grow up in Western society do not understand?

Confucian value are very important, in Chinese martial art, I think., ..

definately.

not all westerners understand or desire to understand or grasp the way many family values and practices are carried over into the martial arts training.

its like, when we do martial arts, for some, it is a way of life. it carries over into all other aspects of our life man times. as such for people like this, its only natural for the reverse to be the case as well. life will enter into your martial arts. especially if you are practicing with family. such as family styles.

[David Jamieson]

This is something that maybe people grow up in Western society do not understand?

Confucian value are very important, in Chinese martial art, I think., ..

the very idea of "western" society in this global village is skewed.

this ain't the 60's man, if I wanna talk to my pal in shanghai, i can and we like a lot of teh same things and have a lot of teh same values.

In other words, east met west a long time ago.

Having said that, everybody everywhere "gets" the idea of extended families, the value of heirarchical structures in a learning environment and so on.

Besides semantics, there isn't a huge difference between cultures, filial associations and so on. different ways of doing the same thing.

[Lucas]

I have certainly met, and still do, many people who are very un knowledgable of the way many asian families work. let alone martial arts families.

case in point, pretty much most the people i work with.


thats not to say, that a lot of people dont 'get it' because many do.

its more of a case that these same types of people dont 'get it' in regards to othe cultures habits in general.

some people dont go beyond their own yards.

[Eric Olson]

Isn't the point of martial arts to gain control over other people? Seems like the hierarchical structure fits right in to that mindset.

EO

[Lucas]

Isn't the point of martial arts to gain control over other people? Seems like the hierarchical structure fits right in to that mindset.

EO

lol, good one

[David Jamieson]

Isn't the point of martial arts to gain control over other people? Seems like the hierarchical structure fits right in to that mindset.

EO

no, that is not the point of martial arts at all.

as in:

"strength is control of others, power is control of the self" ~ Sun Tzu

what is kungfu?

I don't seek control over others.

[Lucas]

So am I still a control freak if I want supreme control over myself?

[David Jamieson]

So am I still a control freak if I want supreme control over myself?

yes, in one form or one manifestation.

To desire control is still desire and you won't gain power through it.

Not in a real sense anyway.

[SanHeChuan]

CMA hierarchy is about seniority not skill.
You could be the worst in the class and still be an older kung fu brother.
It's about treating people with respect, in both directions, like family.
CMA is less military that other styles.

[David Jamieson]

CMA hierarchy is about seniority not skill.
You could be the worst in the class and still be an older kung fu brother.
It's about treating people with respect, in both directions, like family.
CMA is less military that other styles.

depends on where you got yer kungfu from.

there are very military styles that prescribe to military type heirarchies.

then there is the family styles that incorporate the filial piety.

then there are the bas-tard versions of these that pretend to be filial, but only pay that lip service and hold up a charade so people feel like they are doing something special and different etc etc.

heirarchical structure is always about respect up and down within that heirarchy.
outside of the heirarchy, it's meaningless. IE: hippy don't like no soja, soja don't like no taliban.

[Lucas]

yes, in one form or one manifestation.

To desire control is still desire and you won't gain power through it.

Not in a real sense anyway.

its a darn good thing i have a bionic power suit then.