Wing Chun and The root

[Yoshiyahu]

Is your Aikido master old in years or old in that you have not had any use for him in some time? Or both?

Both actually

When I found out about Wing Chun and Chinese Martial Arts I left Aikido and Judo alone. But I saw a week ago at a family function. He is good friends with one of my uncle. But the guy is old...

[Mr Punch]

LOL, well put about the list Generic.

FWIW, here's my opnion:

If you can root on the instant of the punch landing you can dance ballet on the way for all I care.

If you can turn your root on/off as quickly as you can relax your da ready to strike again after impact, that's what you need.

If you can forget about K1, and root from any part of your foot, or even if unbalanced use your opponent's structure to root your own with, then you're talking really useful.

[SimonM]

Is that slight at Aikido...My old Aikido master might not like that?

Aikido is a perfect example of what happens when an old soldier weary of war embraces zen buddhism and tries to turn a trust building exercise into something resembling a martial art.

In other words: not-for-fighting.

As for root...

I think my problem is mainly with the term. All too often I've seen people who glue themselves to the floor because they think they are generating a good root.

YES your whole body generates power.
YES said power depends on the foot - ground connection.
YES sinking into a strike (or for that matter into a clinch) is useful.

BUT DON'T EFFING FIGHT LIKE A TREE!!!!

[t_niehoff]

Non-confrontation discussions are just big circle jerks.

Oh, you do it that way? thats okay... I do it this way. yay we're both right. Lets jerk each other off til the sun goes down.

For the most part, I agree. I'd amend that to say that any theoretical discussion of how things should work is essentially a circle jerk, and that's because concepts are for the most part, a circle jerk. See below.

As for the actual question...

Everyone has a root in some way or another. A root is a connection to the ground. If you mean do you think having a strong root is useless... absolutely not. Countless systems, including boxing, utilize your root in one way or another. Look at Mike Tyson in his prime, all that power came from the ground.

It is however, counter-productive to box root into a single idea... as in.. you always need to have a strong connection to the ground.. Its a variable concept like anything else. Variable percentages of root based on what is needed.

My view is that most of these TCMA "concepts", like root and rooting, are in fact counter-productive to our development. They are vague, poetic terms that intellectualize what is essentially a nonintellecutal activity. People then take thaat concept, impose their own (or their sifu's) defintionfor it, and then use that defintion as authority for how things should be done (spot the circular reasoning?). They then take these preconeptions of the "right" way to do WCK, focus their attention to them, and do everything they can do to follow them, not realizing that by intellectualizing the process they are stifling their awareness of what is really going on (in the activity, with their own bodies, etc.).

When we learn by following concepts (which are ideas), we then judge our performance on the basis of how closely that performance conforms to our idealized "right way". The conceptualized action is not "good" because it feels right and works but only because it conforms to our preconceived standard (that we imposed in the first place). Moreover, when we allow a concept to guide our experience, we perform by rote and our actions become mechanical and unnatural. Our learning is impeded because we are led by ideas instead of experience.

Using your example of Tyson, he didn't develop with the help of concepts like "root" but from performance, from DOING IT (from experience) -- which is how all good athletes develop. By actually hitting things and letting his body give him the feedback of what worked best for him, he found his power.

[Mr Punch]

Aikido is a perfect example of what happens when an old soldier weary of war embraces zen buddhism and tries to turn a trust building exercise into something resembling a martial art.

In other words: not-for-fighting.

Er, completely inaccurate. He defined aikido in 1924, and used it in fighting in wartime. And he embraced a shinto cult: nothing to do with Zen Buddhism. I'm not going to argue about the lack of efficacy in modern times though: but most of that comes from people copying what he did when he was already past it and nuts.

Back to root: T has nailed it. IMO you learn more about root by hitting things (pref ones that are moving and trying to hit you back) than by doing SLT, or talking about K1. The structure is given to you in the forms, but you can only develop it by feedback from hitting things.

[Phil Redmond]

Er, completely inaccurate. He defined aikido in 1924, and used it in fighting in wartime. And he embraced a shinto cult: nothing to do with Zen Buddhism. I'm not going to argue about the lack of efficacy in modern times though: but most of that comes from people copying what he did when he was already past it and nuts . . .

The term Aikido was first used in 1942. Shintoism and Buddhism are intertwined in Japanese culture so you're both right. I also agree with the old soldier statement made by SimonM. O'Sensei abandoned some of the fighting aspects of Daito - Ryu Aikijujutsu when he got spiritual.

[Hendrik]

But as for WC. WC has many facets with in a fight
1.Root
2.Flow
3.Hard Power
4.Soft Force
5.Agility
6.Solidness
7.Center Line
8.Four Gates
9.High
10.Low



There are many facets that are used when fighting with WC. Sometimes straight lines sometimes ciricles. But always at most advantageous times.

Could these stuffs work? have you do it in say something like Kyokushin tournoment...etc?

From my limited experience.
IMHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHO

1, having these stuff running in one's mind guarentee to confuse one and lost touch with reality.

2, be serious, any one have time to think about this while in action?


This is where one trap into one's own mind and lost touch with reality.

[SimonM]

Er, completely inaccurate. He defined aikido in 1924, and used it in fighting in wartime. And he embraced a shinto cult: nothing to do with Zen Buddhism. I'm not going to argue about the lack of efficacy in modern times though: but most of that comes from people copying what he did when he was already past it and nuts.

Perhaps I read inaccurate books on the subject. I believe the one I was drawing what I posted from was called "O Sensei" - and I read it about a decade ago.

Between the distance of time and the possibility of inaccuracy in what I was reading to begin with I will concede the point.

[AdrianK]

My view is that most of these TCMA "concepts", like root and rooting, are in fact counter-productive to our development. They are vague, poetic terms that intellectualize what is essentially a nonintellecutal activity. People then take thaat concept, impose their own (or their sifu's) defintionfor it, and then use that defintion as authority for how things should be done (spot the circular reasoning?). They then take these preconeptions of the "right" way to do WCK, focus their attention to them, and do everything they can do to follow them, not realizing that by intellectualizing the process they are stifling their awareness of what is really going on (in the activity, with their own bodies, etc.).

Wow, for the most part I couldn't agree more. Bravo.

[Hendrik]

My view is that most of these TCMA "concepts", like root and rooting, are in fact counter-productive to our development. They are vague, poetic terms that intellectualize what is essentially a nonintellecutal activity. People then take thaat concept, impose their own (or their sifu's) defintionfor it, and then use that defintion as authority for how things should be done (spot the circular reasoning?).

They then take these preconeptions of the "right" way to do WCK, focus their attention to them, and do everything they can do to follow them, not realizing that by intellectualizing the process they are stifling their awareness of what is really going on (in the activity, with their own bodies, etc.).


Wow, for the most part I couldn't agree more. Bravo.

When someone mistaken finger as moon, one starts to blame the finger and the person who is pointing at the moon; not realized they themselve have never seen the moon.

Usual practice.

[Yoshiyahu]

You make a good point. Let apply a similar list.

Actions use in fighting
1.Front Step
2.Back Step
3.Stillness
4.Movement
5.Softness
6.Power
7.Strong Root and Solid Foundation
8.Light Skills and Agility
9.Punching
10.Kicking


In an actual fight you have no time to think about what your going to do. You just do it naturally. Or instinctively. Meaning there is time to stand and pivot the body while other times you can simply side step or step backwards. This is not something you think of in a fight. For instance I don't ever say in my head oh, my opponent is about to throw a right a jab. So I need to bil Sau then run in chain punch. Oh my opponent step backwards do I move forward or sideways? Oh my opponent is quick with hands do I trap or kick? Do I use power or softness. Do I use skill in movement or skill in root? What is the purpose of what I am doing?

The key in my humble opinion is diffreniated training. You must train strength,speed,power,agility,timing,root,chi,fajin ,light skills,kicking,punching,feeling,deflecting,interce pting,feinting,footwork etc.

But in actual fight you do not have time to meditate on this. Thats why practicing is so important along with Chi Sau and Sparring. With these three intermediataries. One can develop skill and ability in many different areas.

I just really started asking about Root. Because for a long time I have neglected my root in certain areas. There is root in more than just Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. We can work root on traditional horse stance too which is used in pole form. Also forward advancing stance and even hanging horse. But in my meager opinion what is the root doing to benefit you?

1.Sitting in root you are strengthing your legs(Its nothing wrong with definition).
2.Also practicing the Root develops Chi.
3.Practicing root helps develop your structure more.
4.Practicing root gives you options when on in the side.
5.A strong root makes it easier for you deflect certain attacks.
6.A strong root may be use to uproot your opponent.
7.A strong root in motion can used with your strikes.

Personally I don't see having a root as merely standing in one place. You practice building your root standing in one place. One Yip man school I went too was very practical concerning the root. They practice standing in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. The instructor tries to push you backwards using on hand at first. Then later he can use both hands. Also I saw another person elsewhere discussing developing a root by holding a kick pad. An be able to repel a strong kicker. Also this allows the kicker to develop stronger kicks because of the resistance he receives. In addition to him kicking a tree,heavy bag and some times walls.

But ne way very interesting your difference of opinions. Do any of you guys practice your root as well?

Could these stuffs work? have you do it in say something like Kyokushin tournoment...etc?

From my limited experience.
IMHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHO

1, having these stuff running in one's mind guarentee to confuse one and lost touch with reality.

2, be serious, any one have time to think about this while in action?


This is where one trap into one's own mind and lost touch with reality.

[anerlich]

With regard to Aikido, I recommend the book "Angry White Pyjamas" by Robert Twigger, about his experiences training Aikido with the Tokyo Riot Police. The Aikido practiced there was not for granola eaters and tree huggers. It's a good book on its own, funny in parts, worth reading whatever your opinion of Aikido.

AS an Aussie, I hesitate to use the term "root" because of other derisive connotations, but IMO the best way to develop effective body alignment and coordination, active balance under pressure and effective control of one's structure while dealing with incoming force, with immediate feedback, is to practice dynamic standup wrestling drills.

[Hendrik]

Actions use in fighting
1.Front Step
2.Back Step
3.Stillness
4.Movement
5.Softness
6.Power
7.Strong Root and Solid Foundation
8.Light Skills and Agility
9.Punching
10.Kicking -------


IMHO

Again, this is a laundry list with general name but no meaning. It is empty.


IE: FRont step, what are you going to do? how? is it a transition or is it a direct attack?...........

what is stillness? what is movement? what is softness? what is power?




In an actual fight you have no time to think about what your going to do. You just do it naturally. Or instinctively. ---------

What is nature?

For me, most people are REACT HABITUALLY but they have no clue, and that is not nature.




This is not something you think of in a fight. For instance I don't ever say in my head oh, my opponent is about to throw a right a jab. So I need to bil Sau then run in chain punch. Oh my opponent step backwards do I move forward or sideways? Oh my opponent is quick with hands do I trap or kick? Do I use power or softness. Do I use skill in movement or skill in root? What is the purpose of what I am doing? -----------


Ok. So what do you do?




The key in my humble opinion is diffreniated training. You must train strength,speed,power,agility,timing,root,chi,fajin ,light skills,kicking,punching,feeling,deflecting,interce pting,feinting,footwork etc. --------


AGain, here what the heck is Root? Chi? Fajing......etc. how are these concept which is not even clear defined applied in the action?

similar to if one doesnt even know where one is going, where is one end up?







But in actual fight you do not have time to meditate on this. Thats why practicing is so important along with Chi Sau and Sparring. With these three intermediataries. One can develop skill and ability in many different areas. -----------


Practice what?
isnt those type of practice similar to trying to step the same flowing water twice?






I just really started asking about Root. Because for a long time I have neglected my root in certain areas. There is root in more than just Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. -------




To be honest, I have never heard about Root in the ancient WCK script until I come to the USA .

Root in WCK YJKYM some one must be nuts to preach this concept and some one must be dumb to accept this concept.





We can work root on traditional horse stance too which is used in pole form. Also forward advancing stance and even hanging horse. But in my meager opinion what is the root doing to benefit you? ---------


Root keep appeal here, but what is root? what is it?




1.Sitting in root you are strengthing your legs(Its nothing wrong with definition). -----

are you trying to build your legs muscle? what is that got to do with mobility?




2.Also practicing the Root develops Chi. ------


How long have you practice it? and what Chi have you develop?



3.Practicing root helps develop your structure more. ----


Like a tree deep root into the ground and end up stuck there and end up over turn in the big storm?




4.Practicing root gives you options when on in the side. ------

What is inside? what is root got to do with inside?




5.A strong root makes it easier for you deflect certain attacks. ------

Can a tree move when it is hit by a truck?



6.A strong root may be use to uproot your opponent. -----

sure, see if you will uproot a gozilla.




7.A strong root in motion can used with your strikes. -------


Sure, most claim that in thier demo but always get hug and take down by the grapper.....etc



Personally I don't see having a root as merely standing in one place.
You practice building your root standing in one place. --------

Sure, but what is root means?


One school I went too was very practical concerning the root. They practice standing in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. The instructor tries to push you backwards using on hand at first. Then later he can use both hands. ---------


Can that stand the bear hug or lift ..... from a grapper? if not what is the point?




Also I saw another person elsewhere discussing developing a root by holding a kick pad. An be able to repel a strong kicker. Also this allows the kicker to develop stronger kicks because of the resistance he receives. In addition to him kicking a tree,heavy bag and some times walls. ------


Does the King of Kicking style, MT root at all?




But ne way very interesting your difference of opinions. Do any of you guys practice your root as well? ----------


Opinion is just a waste of time.


To be honest,

all these root stuffs is so distorted. It has lost the meaning of the TCMA training. It in fact has become a play with no meaning, a fancy believe which is not usefull.


Do I know what you try to say, yes. But what you try to describe is not what the Ancient TCMA teaches. and you stuck with something partial.

That is the sad part of WCK, at one hand, people has only partial or lost thier art, at the other hand there are people who attack TCMA without knowing what the heck is going on but based on the understanding of them which is totally partial.



Saying that, do I know it all? NOPE, but I do know, that is not what the ancient TCMA training about.


WCK kuen kuit said, " Comes accept, Goes let it return, set free and move forward, using silence to lead action."

There is no talking about ROOTING AT ALL. instead it strange? and why didnt the WCK people wake up and start pay attention to the old saying and examine if thier training can implement the Kuen KUit closer and closer? if it is not then one know, one is in a wrong direction.






Just some thoughts. Sorry for my straight forward.

[Yoshiyahu]

Many of your questions I have already stated. Some of your questions are more rethorical. But one stood out concerning the Kuit Kuen...what does the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit and sayings say about stillness and movement?

Also let me relate to certain questions:

In an actual fight you have no time to think about what your going to do. You just do it naturally. Or instinctively. ---------What is nature? For me, most people are REACT HABITUALLY but they have no clue, and that is not nature.

Habititually or Naturally. You have to make it habit. Thats were drilling comes in. Drill defense against round house kicks. Drill defense against fast jab.Drill defense against shoot. etc etc.


Better words for Naturally
Habitually
Practice
Spontaneous
Instinctively
Automatic Response

Also:
Natural Response due to habitual practice!


Stillness: Well redirecting force with out moving backwards or stepping to side.
Movement: Constant stepping

Ok. So what do you do?

I drill certain techniques so when sparring They can become reflex actions. In sparring I try to get live practice of defending against multiple vectors and ranges of attacks.

AGain, here what the heck is Root? Chi? Fajing

Root=solidness and strong structure implanted in the ground
Chi=enery
Fajin=explosive power

These are simple paraphrases of my opinion...it goes deeper but concerning the Root, Chi and Fajin you know what they mean?

How long have you practice it? and what Chi have you develop?

I have practice the root on and off for like 16 years..but recently been getting back into it from my recent neglection. I have been working on other elements of the WC primarily.

Can a tree move when it is hit by a truck?

Can tree move at all? No. Can a human move? yes? We are both pliable and immovable. Needless to say a 120lbs doesn't stand there when a 270lbs lionbacker is rushing towards him. WC is about turning off force right? Why use your root to take force greater than you?

Please read this article concerning Root!
http://www.mainewingchunkungfu.com/article1.htm

Fajin:

Stretching exercises improve both the flexibility and strength of the legs. Done correctly, these exercises develop the length and strength of the muscles, ligaments and tendons, packing chi energy into them, allowing the legs to store explosive "Far Jing" power within the joints and muscles. This enables the diligent practitioner to not only deliver devastatingly powerful kicks and punches from the base of a strong stance, but also acquire fast, explosive stepping and moving skills.

Root and Chi

The purpose of this standing posture is to build considerable endurance and strength in the leg muscles, and work the chi energy into the legs as the student learns to relax into the position of the Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma (charter two adduction stance), sinking his chi through his legs and into the ground. This stance further teaches the student good posture, body alignment and deepens the stance root, as it continues strengthening and toning important muscle groups. Together these qualities offer a solid base from which the techniques of Wing Chun can be unleashed with great power.

sure, see if you will uproot a gozilla.

I don't think Godzilla could be grappled or submitted either!

Sure, most claim that in thier demo but always get hug and take down by the grapper.....etc

I don't know anyone who can use their root to stop from being taken down. I know my root is not that strong. But if its possible I would like to try to take the guy down myself who has a strong root. To see if I can get him down. I can see a strong root stopping a sweep but not a dead lift or bear hug.

With a grappler you need strikes,skill and movement along with redirection of force. These are keys to advoiding a take down in my foolish opinion.

More concerning the root:

http://www.northeastwingchun.com/RWC...c30Oct2001.htm

There are five key check points in the basic posture: sink in the stance, knees in, hips forward, head up, elbows in and down. Sinking of the stance lowers the center of gravity and helps to "root" and stabilize the practitioner. The "knees in" stance develops the legs for proper Wing Chun movement, and provides protection for the lower body.

I am surprise you never learn about Root in WC when in China. Perhaps maybe since you are Gwalo they choose not to share certain things with you. Well my Sifu taught me about root along other things. AS for all the info on Tao and other books I do not know about. I choose to mostly practice and learn by doing. I practice root when I am sitting down in my stance and sinking my body weight to ground. I also practice moving in and out of the root. As for inside fighting. A friend of mines is a bigger guy then me. So to withstand his forward pressure I have to root. Otherwise I will be flopping around like a rag doll. It allows me other options. Also you never know you may have to fight in hallway,back up against an alley wall,bathroom,stairway or elevator. Where you can only sink your stance because a whole lot moving is not an option.

Again, this is a laundry list with general name but no meaning. It is empty.

You seem like a knowledgeable guy. Do I have to explain the list is a compare and contrast of options one can use in a fight?

1.Tan Sau or Jum sau
2.Bong Sau or Bong Gerk
3.Bridging or not Bridiging
4.Pak Sau or Huen Sau
5.Light skills or Stance rooting
6.Footwork skills or Pivoting
7.Soft Power or Hard Power
8.Speed or Strength
9.Punches or Kicks
10.Arm breaks or Pressure point strikes

What you train the most will come out while fighting. But the key is to be well rounded in your WC?

[Phil Redmond]

...what does the Wing Chun Kuit Kuen and sayings say . .

I know you made a mistake and meant to write Kuen Kuit instead of Kuit Kuen.