Wing Chun and The root

[punchdrunk]

thanks but that was a lot of extra terms and jargon, and a lot of different ideas from different systems thrown in to boot.
Let's try to keep it plain and basic to avoid misunderstanding if possible.

[Hendrik]

thanks but that was a lot of extra terms and jargon, and a lot of different ideas from different systems thrown in to boot.
Let's try to keep it plain and basic to avoid misunderstanding if possible.

There is a reason for in depth term, those are not jargon or extra.

If one is going to university, like it or not, one need to pass SAT. and like it or not one need to pass the vocaburaly test.

If one is going to Grad school, like it or not, one need to pass Gmat.


That is the reality.


ofcorse some might decide not to go to university or grad school. However, the truth of the matter doesnt change due to either go or not going to grad school.



Sure it is not every one's piece of cake. but without going far and deep enough one just dont know.

and also, the more data points or the more the detail description give less chance for mis-understanding in stead of the reverse.

say as simple as relax, there are loose relax, there are aware relax, there are expanding relax, there are dooze off relax, there are non attached relax.... so which relax one needs to be in to get into the state of Silence? Which relax one needs to be in to let the qi surface? ....... lot of stuffs and lots of term needed.

[Yoshiyahu]

maybe instead of using nonspecific jargon we should make this as plain as possible. Could we agree that rooting is being able to control our foot work under the pressure given by an opponent? If this isn't a good enough description I encourage everyone to offer other ideas. Once we get past that we can discuss how different people train it and what their goals are. This could become a good topic if we don't get stuck.

I have said the same things to hendrik as well...He doesn't understand what you mean punchdrunk...

thanks but that was a lot of extra terms and jargon, and a lot of different ideas from different systems thrown in to boot.
Let's try to keep it plain and basic to avoid misunderstanding if possible.

Well I think hendrik point is real Wing Chun doesn't train root at all!

[Yoshiyahu]

Please share how one trains the six directional force to open up the eight meridans. Also is there a way to awaken the the meridans by practicng Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma while Sinking the weight down to ground. An would this of course open up the meridans along with proper meditation?


Also please share the Meridans locations and Channel locations that you are speaking of?

The so called Rooting in general today is only cover one of the 6 direction force in a 3 diamensional physical world.

Meaning,

the down ward force vector is just 1/6 of the total, 6 directional force.


See, the Chinese model is a six directional force . when all the force vector is complete, This in Taiji is called Huan Yuan lik in Yee Chuan is Called Liu Mean lik.

So, those who doing standing post or Zhan Zhuang to cultivate holistic momentum ability. The ultimate goal is to cultivate this six directional force.




Thus, say in Taiji, it talks about Root, but in the same time, it also talk about Hang.
meaning the Root from Ground and Head top hang to heaven.

with this Root and Hang couple, one has a balance one dimensional practice. However, it is still not complete. because it lacks the left/right and forward/backward components.

So, up/down, left/right, forward/backward = the six directional needs to be holistic in order to become the So called Taiji ball, or the Hoon Yuan .....etc. before one can roll.


So, the reason in the ancient time, one needs to stand in the post for 3 months to 3 years or always go back and refine the stand in post or Zhan Zhuang is to fine tune the 6 directional force . without those, foot work....etc just doesnt do much. there is no instant Noodle Kung Fu. sure some might progress faster then others but no Instant Noodle.

And extremely important, one needs to have the complete view and process.
Say, if today we dont know about the 6 directional force. we keep practice the rooting, one can do it in 1000X life time, still, one cant move properly, that is for sure.


While one "root" one needs to "hang" so that the "root" doesnt become "DEAD weight" , the spine not become compressing but betwen joins of the spine like cusion with an air packet. .....
Thus, one could totally drill into the center of the earth but feeling float like weight less. That is the essential of SLT/SNT training. thus, it is not Hung Gar Iron wire or .... it is a different type of kung fu.

See, rooting is nothing to do with heavy.


Now, people takes partial thing such as ROOT and make a big deal on it. well, one can do anyting one wants and argue about it, but if one doesnt even know and later have /transform one's "momentum body "into a ball or 6 directional balance momentum one doesnt that kung fu.




without the holistic six directional force training, forget about fajin. one doesnt have the basic training to support fa jin. and the 6 directional force vectors links to the activation of the 8 special medirians.

all of these above and jin and lik has to be crystal clear on the cause and effect, nothing mysterious.


Finally, hope that the information above is used for our daily living, because we all are aging, knowing these stuffs , do a proper training will aid us for our movements at old age.




just some thoughts.

[Hendrik]

Please share how one trains the six directional force to open up the eight meridans. Also is there a way to awaken the the meridans by practicng Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma while Sinking the weight down to ground. An would this of course open up the meridans along with proper meditation?


Also please share the Meridans locations and Channel locations that you are speaking of?

I am just a messenger,

To be real honest, that is your sifu's job.

thus, one needs to bai si and learn if one doesnt have a sifu, cant do it in the net.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

anyone got an pics or vids? I hate youtube so Mpeg form or wmv or something, i watched most of Phil's vids excellent by the way. I dunno about you all but im more of a visual learner.

[Hendrik]

I have said the same things to hendrik as well...He doesn't understand what you mean punchdrunk...

is it I dont understand or
is it one needs to go to the mountain instead of asking the mountain to walk to one?

one needs to eat one needs to chew.

[Wayfaring]

The so called Rooting in general today is only cover one of the 6 direction force in a 3 diamensional physical world.

Meaning,

the down ward force vector is just 1/6 of the total, 6 directional force.


See, the Chinese model is a six directional force . when all the force vector is complete, This in Taiji is called Huan Yuan lik in Yee Chuan is Called Liu Mean lik.

I agree with Hendrik. The general concept of rooting is usually connected to sinking down into the ground somehow.

Real structured rooting as seen in many disciplines covers the ability to deal with force upon your structure in all 6 directions, and would of necessity cover the ability to keep this structure while moving and in your transitions in movement.

[Hendrik]

I agree with Hendrik. The general concept of rooting is usually connected to sinking down into the ground somehow.

Real structured rooting as seen in many disciplines covers the ability to deal with force upon your structure in all 6 directions, and would of necessity cover the ability to keep this structure while moving and in your transitions in movement.

IMHO, from my decades of studying.

Let's not use the term Rooting because it is confusing, but using the 6 D force as the fundamental model. the reason is after the 6 D force being done in static, one can enter into dynamic, as for the Rooting it is always focus or center on the grounding or down ward force. one usually got stuck because the too much emphasis on downward and also missing other direction force components.


with the 6 D force model as a general platform, one can use this model to analyzed different art such as Taiji, Yee Chua, Bagua, Wing Chun... to see how each different style have a different way of handling the 6 D force.

and with the different handling of the 6 D force or the six directioal Li, then one be able to move forward to understood Jin properly. Jin is just Li's flow patern. and sure due to different art is different in their 6 D force patern, the jin then will be different.


when it comes to issuing jin or fa jing, then one can know clearly which direction force is activate or triggle and the timing......or what reaction force in what direction is use as triggling......etc. to the force to flow in different patern or direction.

simple and clear.

The only thing is if the 8 medirians are not activate, then the sensitivity of the 6 D force is not well handle or even stuck.

IE: most who does the YJKYM only handling two medirians, the other six much less uses or ignore. that create an rigid movement and or un stable execution.....etc.

[Genetic]

The so called Rooting in general today is only cover one of the 6 direction force in a 3 diamensional physical world.

...
While one "root" one needs to "hang" so that the "root" doesnt become "DEAD weight" , the spine not become compressing but betwen joins of the spine like cusion with an air packet. .....
Thus, one could totally drill into the center of the earth but feeling float like weight less. That is the essential of SLT/SNT training. thus, it is not Hung Gar Iron wire or .... it is a different type of kung fu.

See, rooting is nothing to do with heavy.


Now, people takes partial thing such as ROOT and make a big deal on it. well, one can do anyting one wants and argue about it, but if one doesnt even know and later have /transform one's "momentum body "into a ball or 6 directional balance momentum one doesnt that kung fu.

without the holistic six directional force training, forget about fajin. one doesnt have the basic training to support fa jin. and the 6 directional force vectors links to the activation of the 8 special medirians.

all of these above and jin and lik has to be crystal clear on the cause and effect, nothing mysterious.

Hendrik, I have mentioned before that my daughter doesnt have to understand say what walking is to be able to walk.

But what you are describing here about 6 directional force, do you think that this is what people learn from wing chun training anyway, without going into too much unnecessary detail?

First you study SNT and train YJKYM. You develop you (downward) root. And train energy and structure.

Then you study CK. You learn how to 'un-heavy' your root. You learn to move whilst keeping rooted. For me my structure changed, which changed the way I did SNT. My body became more upright, leaning back less than when training SNT originally. You learn how to be solid on the floor and stick to it, with at times a lot of forward potentil, a bit like a coiled spring, but also to become free from the floor and move whilst still in contact with the floor, when rotating and moving forwards.

When you have this, moving forwards, backwards, sideways whilst retaining structure and body unity is understood? Without imaginary or real but unnecessary to know about energy channels?

My daughter is amazing, and can do amazing things. Weridly she doesnt even know what she is.

[punchdrunk]

maybe another persons view point besides Hendrick on rooting? Not to be snobbish but I find his topics always end with him saying to bai si to a better Sifu, or saying we can't understand his level because we can't read chinese.
I think Wing Chun is as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. If we share a similar concept or definition for rooting, in my experience one of the best ways it is trained is in beginning 2 handed chi sao with a senior pushing and pulling a juniors stance while he tries to maintain good balance, facing, and keeping a good tan/bong or fook structure. At this beginning stage he should be trying to stay in yjkym as best he can. I would love to hear others training ideas, experiences or methods.

[Hendrik]

maybe another persons view point besides Hendrick on rooting?

Not to be snobbish but I find his topics always end with him saying to bai si to a better Sifu, or saying we can't understand his level because we can't read chinese.

1, I have never say you cant understand the subject i mention because you did read chinese. Never. and in fact lots of people here understand what I wrote.

2, Baisi is a truth and the fastest way to learn. I myself have many sifus and still baisi to learn what I dont know. So what is the big deal about baisi if one want to learn something in depth?


it is ok to dont like my posts, so ignore them.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, I have mentioned before that my daughter doesnt have to understand say what walking is to be able to walk.


.............. My daughter is amazing, and can do amazing things. Weridly she doesnt even know what she is.

Sure you are absolutely right. In that case, you dont even have to learn WCK either right?

[Hardwork108]

Sure you are absolutely right. In that case, you dont even have to learn WCK either right?

Wise words Hendrik. I mean it.

[Yoshiyahu]

I understand your post...but to me you tend to ramble on with alot unneeded info. Alot of what you say is either useless information or off topic info. An sometimes you just draw out your explanation instead of getting to the point. A wise saying is to make your words few and brief. No need to have long winded explanation.

So in other words keep your words simple and concise. No need to write a thesis all the time. Just simply make your point. I understand because I too use to have the same problem until I learn how to speak and write in common vernacular so others can understand. Maybe take a college class on speech giving and writing.

Even Barak Obama's speeches are more concise and simple than yours an he is the president of the united states...You might take note of that.

1, I have never say you cant understand the subject i mention because you did read chinese. Never. and in fact lots of people here understand what I wrote.

2, Baisi is a truth and the fastest way to learn. I myself have many sifus and still baisi to learn what I dont know. So what is the big deal about baisi if one want to learn something in depth?


it is ok to dont like my posts, so ignore them.