VTM Discussion\Black Flag Wing Chun

[Marcelo-RJ]

Good evening, everyone!

I was the first Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun student in Brasil and the promoter of all of the 10 international HFY workshops that were held in Rio de Janeiro.
As a member of the original group and a close friend and training partner of the current head of our local Hung Fa Kwoon, I want to make sure that we, from Rio de Janeiro, are directly connected to Grand Master Garrett Gee and the World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association. I also want to make sure that we have nothing at all to do with "Three Halls of Shaolin", "Shaolin Wing Chun", "Black Flag Wing Chun" or any other activity of Mr. Meng and Mr. Alex(andre) Magnos in this Country.
The video referred to on the post above was released by Mr. Meng and Mr. Alex(andre) Magnos (btw, never a certified Moy Yat instructor as some would mistakenly say) and , in my opinion, it is not, by any means, a fair representation of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. Rather, I have always found that video poor, out of time and highly deceiptive.
Thank you,

Marcelo A C Santos
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil

[Hendrik]

1, VTM doesnt seem to realized that Eng (eternal) Chun is not Wing (praise) Chun.

http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html


2, For me after looking at the site, based on the set practice ....etc

With all the respect to HKB Engchun and the ancestors of this lineage, in my humble opion, HKB Engchun is more likely to be a lineage evolution of White Crane Eng Chun of Fujian.



3, As for Wing Chun, we know by evident, The core SLT is fusion from White Crane Eng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang. Where the tale of the Crane and Snake comes.


Today, we could still probe into the Crane and the Snake which fusion into SLT. In the history of China, Both the White Crane Eng Chun of Fujian can be traced to mid 1600 where the founder Ms Fang Chi Niang teaches Eng Chun Kuen in Fujian prior to spread the art to Taiwan. Emei 12 Zhuang could be traced to 1300.

Wing Chun is called Wing Chun because it is the art of the Opera Actors such as Lee Man Mau who lead the Red Bandana or the first Opera Artists revolution in the Chinese history and red boat artist Yik Kam who both exist in mid 1800.

According to Yik Kam's lineage record, the Name of the WCK style prio to WCK is simply Siu Lin Tau. and the Salutation performing before SLT and pole kuit of the Six point half pole is the Code for the revolution to identify the identity of the lineage.




4, I see HKB Engchun as a sister art of WCK from the mother Crane side, but it is not an older art because SLT is based on a 400 years + 700 years old trace able in Chinese official history martial art system.

and the family tree in

http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html

might be true for others but certainly not for WCK.


also in this family tree, Eng Chun is preciesly translate as Eternal Spring.





As a conclusion, in my opinion, it is alway good to learn something from other sister art, however, it is a disaster to confuse the source of the art.
As in the Chinese culture, mess up the source of the water is not an act of a filial decendent or a righteous gentle man.



I really hope and pray that VTM do a better job and bring up quality work of finding the source of WCK; and best wishes to HKB Eng Chun's future expansion.

My bottom line is simply, perhaps, it is the time for the WCK community to describe what it is instead of lumping /linking and making more confusion. That present no benifit to anyone in the long run.

[t_niehoff]

I can only see two options: or Benny Meng found out that H.F.Y. was not the advanced Martial Art he used to proclaim, or Benny Meng found in Black Flag a treasure that even H.F.Y. lost its value before his eyes. Whatever it is, the answer speaks no good of H.F.Y.'s credibility, that, by the way, has been involved in controversies and disputes since Benny Meng started that B.S. that "our" (Ng Mui/Yip Man) Wing Chun was inferior to "his" (Cheung Ng/Hung Fa Yi) Wing Chun.

A cynic might see a third option, one that pertains to the almighty dollar.

[Hudson Li]

t_niehoff,

Until a few hours ago I've been somewhat trustful about the V.T.M.'s ideological isemption. At this point, however, I'd be inclined to bet on the third option.

[Peter-Malave]

This workshop should be interesting. On their page here: http://www.blackflagwingchun.com/main.html Their talk is eerily familiar to the language the VTM has used in their articles on Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.

an excerpt:

What is Black Flag Wing Chun Kung Fu ?


Fukien Black Flag Wing Chun Kungfu is a unique system that allows practitioners to express maximum efficiency toward an opponent's attack using the most economical means possible with the least amount of time, space, and energy. The focus of the system is to occupy the opponent’s space at the right time and to use our energy very efficiently.

This system originated from Southern Shaolin in Fukien. The creation of the system was due to the invasion and overthrow of the Ming by the Qing in 1644. The place they used to discuss the new hybrid system was called Eng Chun Tim (Weng Chun Dim), which meant “Hall of Forever Spring” inside the Southern Shaolin Temple. Many Ming loyalties, Senior Monks and Martial Art Masters, through their combined effort, ended up developing a new hybrid system as the essence of all advanced styles to be taught to secret rebellion warriors to overthrow the Qing Dynasty and preserve the depth of wisdom and knowledge within the Shaolin Temples.

What was created inside the 'Eng Chun Tim' in the Fukien Shaolin Temple goes beyond just new techniques, styles or concepts. From the Shaolin Temple in Fukien, this secret treasure was passed on to the hands of the Black Flag Secret Society as the gate keeper of the system.

We take the student beyond just learning the techniques of self defense. Students will have a chance to see and understand the paradigm of time, space and energy, starting by the understanding of the microcosm (own self/identity=Mind, Body and Energy), followed by understanding the macrocosm (Time and Space) and at the end, to achieve emptiness (Ngo Kek) where there is no more illusion of attachment. Everything becomes clear. These stages are referred to as "Sam chin sam tue" (Three stages of life/learning).

To harmonize your own energy toward the changes of time and space (Illusion of Attachment), one must understand the original Shaolin Black Flag Wing Chun formula, such as:
1. Two Line of Offense, using Im-Yang Hand.
2. 3-Dimentional body structure, along with triangle point of ‘square’ body & stance structure.
3. Three vertical references of Heaven, Earth and Man.
4. Five lines of width (Two Shoulder line [Yang Line], Two Chest Line [Im Line], and Centerline).
5. Three bridge range of Heaven, Earth and Man.
6. Nine gates reference and four directions.
6. Wheel bearing body.
7. Impulse/shock Power Generation (Hoat Keng).
8. Internal Power (Nui Kang).
9. Blind Side Entry (Siam), Triangle (Sa Kak Bhe), 4 corner (Si Kak Bhe) and Zig-Zag (Goan Po) footwork.

I hope that after the workshop there will be some input from the attendees as to whether or not this is a coincidence. I hate to say it, but since the apparent fallout on HFY108 with Benny Meng I can only speculate that Hudson Li and Terence Niehoff's suspicions are correct.

Peter

[Peter-Malave]

After following the (now gone) 3 Halls and HFY thread on HFY108 over the past month or so, and seeing this "new" Eng Chun/VTM corroboration I'd say that Hudson Li is a pretty good detective. I've also noticed that on HFY108.com there are no more listings for certain schools, in comparison to his new forum Shaolin Wing Chun 108

The schools for Dayton, Centerville, Richmond, Cincinnati, Kansas City, North Kansas, and Houston, are not on HFY108. There are also listings on HFY108 that are not on Benny Meng's forum... hmmm.

I visited one of their websites here and noticed that the links to several schools no longer promote HFYWC either. Sifu John Lambert seems to be the only one listed as an official Hung Fa Kwoon on his site. Sifu Chango Noaks only mentions anything about HFY or Grandmaster Garrett Gee on his bio page.

In reading some comments on Shaolin Wing Chun 108, such as this one:

I would like to join in on congratulating Sifu and everyone else involved on deciding to have our own Forum. I never actually made one comment, nor did I post even one message in the other Forum because of all of the negative energy. I did not want to get drawn into the middle of it. I think this is a very good idea. I also think it will provide a much richer understanding of the information about Shaolin training and the Third Hall info. I used to have many problems deciphering what was true and what wasn't because of all of the arguing going on in HFY108. I also want to say thank you to everyone who thought of this because it will help me learn faster than before.

Aaron M.

And lastly, after viewing the Brazilian page, I'd say there was a DEFINITE split. Their new logo looks like a total rip off of the HFY logo. I can't copy the logo image, but it's easily seen here.

Yikes!
Peter

[Hudson Li]

It's not needed to be a good detective when all the clues are right before our eyes, Peter!
Black Flag Wing Chun "history" has changed considerably after Benny Meng started speaking about them, just like Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun "history" has changed consideraby since Benny Meng started writting about it. Benny's writting style is the same in both cases. Note that Garrett Gee's Irish website states that H.F.Y.'s identity was stablished by Hung Gun Biu while Benny Meng's articles used to preach that Hung Fa Yi has never ever changed since Cheung Ng due to the so-called Formula. Now Benny used to say H.F.Y. was for highest level monks and militaries only, and now his Brazilian website states that H.F.Y. rebels were regular Infantry, while Black Flag was the elite division. It all depends on Benny's (and the V.T.M.'s) convenience.
Now look who I've found on the website recommended by Chango: http://www.shaolinkungfucenter.com/main.html
Scroll down and you will see Benny Meng on Black Flag's uniform!
Moy Yat, Garrett Gee... who's the next?

[duende]

It's not needed to be a good detective when all the clues are right before our eyes, Peter!
Black Flag Wing Chun "history" has changed considerably after Benny Meng started speaking about them, just like Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun "history" has changed consideraby since Benny Meng started writting about it. Benny's writting style is the same in both cases. Note that Garrett Gee's Irish website states that H.F.Y.'s identity was stablished by Hung Gun Biu while Benny Meng's articles used to preach that Hung Fa Yi has never ever changed since Cheung Ng due to the so-called Formula. Now Benny used to say H.F.Y. was for highest level monks and militaries only, and now his Brazilian website states that H.F.Y. rebels were regular Infantry, while Black Flag was the elite division. It all depends on Benny's (and the V.T.M.'s) convenience.
Now look who I've found on the website recommended by Chango: http://www.shaolinkungfucenter.com/main.html
Scroll down and you will see Benny Meng on Black Flag's uniform!
Moy Yat, Garrett Gee... who's the next?

Hmm... as both Hung Gun Biu and Cheung Ng have ancestral role's in HFY's Lineage. I don't see how you deem this a change.

The only change I can think of, is when HFY went public, and we revealed that our true name was Hung Fa Yi, and not Hung Suen. The Hung Suen name simply being a general WC term for public use. So that was a change. (Incidentally, the act of going public itself was quite a bigger change than revealing our true name)

As time goes on, our GM will determine when it is proper to release more info as he sees fit. It is not my place to do so, although I must admit, there have been times when I would have liked to.


So I am happy to say that at our upcoming workshop in AZ, GM Gee will publicly reveal certain details about our history that many here have been asking about for quite sometime.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2754



Good training to all.

[Hudson Li]

Well, duende... it's clear as the purest crystal that if Hung Gun Biu is the one behind H.F.Y.'s signature, then Cheung Ng's original style, if any, was obviously changed.
Benny says H.F.Y. remained intact from the very beginning, but the Bai Jong article on the Irish website says Hung Gun Biu gave H.F.Y. its characteristical elements based on the spear technology (as you, H.F.Y. and now also B.F., put it). Dude, you guys even call yourselves Hung Gun Biu lineage, c'mon!

[Hudson Li]

So now that Black Flag has a 'formula'... is anyone trying to capitalize upon H.F.Y.'s terminology? If times were not so rough I would certainly attend both seminars H.F.Y. and B.F. just to collect all the information and counter information those groups will release.

[duende]

Hudson,

Get your arguments straight. Are you talking about history or system. If we are talking about History, I've already shared that both Hun Gun Biu and Cheung Ng are our ancestors. That has not changed. END OF ARGUMENT.

If you are talking about system, then you'd better learn some HFY before we can even have this conversation, because you do not know what our system is, how it works, or how it can be used with other "outside the box" techniques. So again.. END OF ARGUMENT.

As for hand techniques developing out of spear technology, this is nothing new. Nor is it something unique to HFY. Besides, one hand form technique/drill does not define what is or what is not the HFY system. So again. END OF ARGUMENT.

You have taken two out-of context statements. One from BM and one from Ireland. Both have only been exposed to the martial arts side of HFY. Neither can speak for our lineage. Not by a long shot.

The real question here is, what motivates you to try confuse people with these accusations?

[Hudson Li]

duende,

Sorry to say this, but it seems it's only you who cannot get the meaning of my straight affirmation. I do not know where you've taken this history or system mess from, since my statement was clear: we have (had) Benny Meng saying H.F.Y. had not changed a bit since Cheung Ng (late 1600, early 1700), and we have not only the now defunct Irish site but also many at hfy108.com saying that Hung Gun Biu (half 1800, contemporary of the Red Junks) introduced new elements into H.F.Y.

I'm not being rude towards your organization. My words have nothing to do with myself not being a H.F.Y. student, they have nothing to do with Cheung Ng being or not an ancestor and they have nothing to do with system vs. history. It's all about two affirmations coming from your K.F. family (H.F.Y. had never changed since Cheung Ng/ H.F.Y. was improved, thus changed, by Hung Gun Biu). Those affirmations simple do not match. Period.

For you, who's got the reason, duende? Is H.F.Y. the same since the fall of Shaolin or had Hung Gun Biu introduced some modifications to the system?

[duende]

Hudson,

I can't speak for why others do the things they do. I am only speaking for myself.

But what I can tell you, is simply this. The WC formula (Sup Ming Dim/Tin Yan Dei body karma expression) does not change. This is because they are based on the physical structure and body mechanics of the human body. However, this awareness of self and martial knowledge can be adapted to be used with new techniques and so forth.

Therefore, one could say that nothing has changed since Cheung Ng (meaning the WC formula/inside-the-box)), and also say that new elements were introduced during he Hung Gun Biu period. (incorporation of outside-the-box techniques and tactics)

What's my reason? I am trying to help you understand how HFY works. New technology effects everything. We adapt our arts accordingly. But the human body does not change. Physics of Time Space and Energy do not change. Get it??

I know it can be confusing, but I am honestly just trying to help you.

Peace out

[Hudson Li]

Thank you, duende. I need sometime to think of what you said. For now, the piece of information you provided leads me to the conclusion that H.F.Y., as expected from any martial art, is in constant evolution - which ultimately means it has changed since it was created.

[Hendrik]

The WC formula (Sup Ming Dim/Tin Yan Dei body karma expression) does not change. ................

But the human body does not change.

Physics of Time Space and Energy do not change. Get it??

ARe you serious?

How do you link this with Chan of Shao Lin? is it even Chan related?