Why does Black Flag history keep changing?

[Hendrik]

Hello Bo_Toxic,

I ran into one of my friends who speaks Chinese this weekend and got them to help me translate this article.

Apparently it was written by a descendant of Fong Hop Jong, who was one of the Fong White Crane Boxing Masters from Fukien province. The purpose of the article is to clear up misconceptions between the two styles called "wing chun" after years of research.

(Translation/Edit as best I could get it to make sense for english readers
**************************
In the Martial Arts community Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun and the systems they represent are different. Fukien White Crane boxing is represented by the Fong lineage. Why is it that people confuse white crane with wing chun? Primarily for three main reasons: 1. When talking about Fukien Wing Chun white crane, "Wing Chun" can be referrencing a place, not a style or system. 2. Wing Chun is a person, Though Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun have similar names, the last name is different, meaning they don't come from the same family and are not the same person. 3. Crane and snake movement exist both in Fukien White Crane and in Wing Chun, however movements tied to crane and snake exist in tons of other kung fu systems, so one can not reliably say one begot the other.
************************

So, if my translation is correct, it pokes a number of big holes in Hendrik's theories. If a white crane master is willing to state that the two systems are different, who are we going to believe? I person who lives in China, is a descendant of a master of the art and actually understand the culture, or some guy who repeats himself all over the internet like a babbling fool like Hendrik?

Honestly, this makes a lot of sense, because Yik Kam's wing chun system, only has Siu Lin Tao or "little drilling in the beginning", it doesn't have chum kiu of biu gee like the rest of the world's wing chun. It's probably likely that Yik Kam learned some white crane and Emei or whatever else and just decided to call it that based on the drilling format of all the different things he learned rather than any credible link to the system called wing chun. Did Yik Kam even call his system "Wing Chun" during his lifetime? Or was that tacked on by his descendants?

For that matter, how come no other Wing Chun in the world links back to anything having to do with Emei? GM Yip man never mentioned it, none of the three systems from GM Leung Jan mention it, nothing coming from Wong Wa Bo at all mentions anything having to do with Emei! Where did it all come from? It has to be Yik Kam!

It seems that people like Hendrik only know 1/2 the story and are making up the rest (probably from all the drugs that go with the 70's songs). If the article is correct that means systems like Hendrik's half-breed "wing chun" are only making the confusion worse.

The chinese writer who claim to be a White Crane person even get his own Fang ancestor's name wrong. That is how much he knows his stuffs.



Get the name of the Fang ancestors straight in this website:

the creation of this style is attributed to Fāng Qīniáng (方七娘; Amoy Min Nan: Hng Chhit-niâ),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian_White_Crane





and BTW

Notice they even have Lee Man Mau the chief of Red Badana listed.

Lǐ Wénmào (李文茂), a historically verifiable opera performer and leader in the 1854–1855 Red Turban Rebellion in Foshan, is said to have practiced the Yǒngchūn style of White Crane.

and here is the White Crane of Fujian lineage Family tree from Fujian.


http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/lineage.html


there is only 方七娘 no 方詠春








Thus, The rest of this person's logic is sad.

He could NOT even get his ANCESTOR's name right, how to go deeper or advance level's technology stuff....? hopeless.

no comment on your imagination and fantasy which based on others mistake.



BTW

what WCK are you practice? may be you need to take a close look at your WCK before post anything on others.

You better not following this Chinese writer who cant even get his ancestors name right but thinking he knows it all. That will be very looking very bad isnt it? hahaha


where is your WCK from Lee Man Mau?

[Bo_toxic]

Fong Wing Chun a.k.a Fong Chut Leung.
I don't understand why any of you bother responding to this character Hendrik. He obviously doesn't know enough to warrant any credibility.
He made lots of statements but can't substantiate them with any documentation. At the same time he copies bits and pieces from various sources, out of context and presents himself as an expert googler. He's not able to have a decent conversation with any knowledgeable person, as he can't accept any information if it does not fit his agenda.

[Rolf]

Hendrik,

I saw your clip and I‘m not impressed. I have friends who are experts in Lo Mei. They pointed out, that what you showed is a very basic exercise in the Lo Mei system. They were even more shocked when you called it yik kam slt. They asked why you called it yik kam slt when it is clearly a lo mei exercise.

I’ve also been reading your criticism of Chi Sim Weng Chun. You’ve been claiming that it’s not wing chun. It’s not really your place to decide what is or is not wing chun. You continue to attempt to define what is and is not wing chun. Even your own lineage of yik kam slt, is not really identified as wing chun by most people in the wing chun world.

Why would you call a Lo Mei exercise as wing chun? Would you say this more about yik kam’s personal experience. As in, he mixed Lo Mei and White Crane? It has nothing to do with wing chun. Would that be a fair statement from your perspective?

[duende]

Neither are all Mafia or Yakuza members, it doesn't change that the organizations are.

This is a false argument.

Yakuza and Mafia are not the same thing as the Chinese Triads. Nor is their history similar at all.

Check this excerpt out.....

Wing Chun History? An alternative viewpoint
by David Peterson


Far from being the criminal groups which the Australian and world media are fond of portraying, the Triads were secret organizations formed to unite the Chinese against a common enemy. Such was the case in the 1890's when the Boxer Movement swept across northern China, a rebellion organised by secret societies whose aim was the expulsion of the foreign invaders from Chinese soil.

Many of the modern Triads are legitimate groups whose aim is to help members of their own Chinese communities around the world. Melbourne's Man Ji Dong or Chinese Masonic Society and its Sydney counterpart, the Ji Gung Tong are perfect examples of legitimate (not to mention law?abiding) Triad organizations. I say this in complete confidence being, as I am, a fully initiated member of the Melbourne based group, perhaps in fact the only non?Chinese in the last 150 years to have been through this very secret of ceremonies, the last known "gwailo" being a couple of British sailors in Macau during the 1800's, according to what elder members here can recall being the case.

To return to my original thrust, even these legitimate Triad groups claim to have been founded by members of the Shaolin sect who founded these groups following the burning of the Shaolin Temple in the late 1700's (an incident which, incidentally, cannot be verified by any existing records in China and is now thought to have been a story invented by the Triad leaders to encourage unity amongst the various groups and to fuel the Chinese hatred for their Manchurian oppressors). These Triad "ancestors" fled to various places in China and began inciting the people to rebel. Modern day criminal groups, such as the 14k Triad, in hoping to instil fear and respect, not to mention gain some measure of credibility for themselves by gaining some "instant history", have adopted the customs and rituals of the real Triads. Unfortunately, these false Triads have received more than their fair share of attention and in doing so, have given the term 'Triad' a less than flattering interpretation.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

I saw your clip and I‘m not impressed. I have friends who are experts in Lo Mei. They pointed out, that what you showed is a very basic exercise in the Lo Mei system. They were even more shocked when you called it yik kam slt. They asked why you called it yik kam slt when it is clearly a lo mei exercise.

I’ve also been reading your criticism of Chi Sim Weng Chun. You’ve been claiming that it’s not wing chun. It’s not really your place to decide what is or is not wing chun. You continue to attempt to define what is and is not wing chun. Even your own lineage of yik kam slt, is not really identified as wing chun by most people in the wing chun world.

Why would you call a Lo Mei exercise as wing chun? Would you say this more about yik kam’s personal experience. As in, he mixed Lo Mei and White Crane? It has nothing to do with wing chun. Would that be a fair statement from your perspective?

keep up with your fantasy since you are not capable to live in reality.

[Stevehans]

keep up with your fantasy since you are not capable to live in reality.

I'm a little dissappointed That's not a typical Hendrick answer, sounds more like Terrence.

I personally thought Rolf's questions were quite reasonable in light of what you have said.

[Hendrik]

I'm a little dissappointed That's not a typical Hendrick answer, sounds more like Terrence.

I personally thought Rolf's questions were quite reasonable in light of what you have said.

There is nothing typical. and also if you like to live in a fantasy life similar to Rolf. that is your choice free will. Not my issue .

[Rolf]

Hendrik,

You haven’t addressed either one of my questions. Both are reasonable.

Why would you take an omei exercise and call it yik kam slt?

[Vajramusti]

I DON'T speak for Hendrik- but I believe that in his analysis that wing chun was born in a fusion that included some key aspects of original fukien crane and emei principles.

Hope that you are doing well.


joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Joy,

You are correct. Thanks!

[Vajramusti]

FYI-The Rolf who has posted on this thread is some other Rolf who I don't know. It isn't Rolf Clausnitzer of Perth, Australia.

Crazy stage in some of the forum threads. Me thinks that one of them has deteriorated so badly- it could stand being closed down. I am outta here for a little while as far as responding to silly posts.

joy

[anerlich]

There is nothing typical. and also if you like to live in a fantasy life similar to Rolf. that is your choice free will. Not my issue .

This from someone who talks about fighting vampires and the undead on another thread.

[Rolf]

Hendrik,

So how much value should we all place on “your analysis?” What credibility do you really have? Your experience comes from yik kam slt, correct? So your sifu says wing chun comes from crane and emei. So it would seem it’s just his experience (not even your experience) of combining partial information these two systems and calling yik kam slt?

Again, I question why feel you write with any authority at all. What you call yik kam slt really isn’t even widely accepted as wing chun. Of course, your free to have your own opinion, but it’s just that. No authority or real value attached.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Hendrik's theory of Wing Chun being a Combo of Snake & Crane boxing is nothing new under the sun. Almost ALL "WING" Chun lineage claim to be from Snake & Crane root. The only thing Hendrik has put forward is a more likely hypothesis as to which arts are the root of the entire Snake & Crane legend. Fujian "Crane" Boxing & Emei "Snake" Body. Snake Body & Crane Boxing. For more info..

http://www.emeiqigong.us/articles/articles.html


Seems to me that these so-called "Weng" arts may have some root/connection in the Fujian (white crane) "WENG" CHUN arts.

A perfect example! What is the first set of the Black Flag Eng Chun system? SAN CHIN! The Fujian White Crane Mother set.





Back to lurk mode!

[t_niehoff]

Hello,


Hendrik's theory of Wing Chun being a Combo of Snake & Crane boxing is nothing new under the sun. Almost ALL "WING" Chun lineage claim to be from Snake & Crane root. The only thing Hendrik has put forward is a more likely hypothesis as to which arts are the root of the entire Snake & Crane legend. Fujian "Crane" Boxing & Emei "Snake" Body. Snake Body & Crane Boxing. For more info..

http://www.emeiqigong.us/articles/articles.html


Seems to me that these so-called "Weng" arts may have some root/connection in the Fujian (white crane) "WENG" CHUN arts.

A perfect example! What is the first set of the Black Flag Eng Chun system? SAN CHIN! The Fujian White Crane Mother set.





Back to lurk mode!

Good post.