Concave Chest - Curl

[sanjuro_ronin]

To paraphrase GM Mark (and a few others), as straight as it needs to be and as "curved" as it needs to be.

[Hardwork108]

To paraphrase GM Mark (and a few others), as straight as it needs to be and as "curved" as it needs to be.

Paraphrasing is easy but UNDERSTANDING is not!

[Hardwork108]

yes; and this is why standing practice is of value: it slows down the movement (because, even when standing "still", one is still moving, of course); over time, one is able to feel one's own movement at a more precise level, even when moving quickly;

Very true and of course the standing practice also helps as an internal linking exercise.

It is unfortunate that nowadays, specially with the knucklehead culture prevalent in the MA community, it is difficult to implement such training as regularly and as widespread as one would like.

well, coil / uncoil may not be the best word, as that could imply a turing and twisting movement (e.g. - bagua-like motion); maybe compress / decompress along a vertical axis? the tuck in / sink would be an example of this;

I see what you are saying better now.

again, while each style may have various "trademarks" of their movements, there are more similarities than differences between (real / authentic) taiji, WC, so. mantis, etc.

I would only agree that there are more similarities than many think but at the same time there may also be more differences than many think as well, if we are indeed discussing real/authentic kung fu styles.

Of course, wether your statement holds true will depend on the individual kung fu styles being compared.

since you keep coming back "micro" level, which I have up to this point not been describing, it is actually at the level of connective tissue (CT) that you do see this occur: CT is made up of elastin / collagen fibers housed in a ground substance, forming a matrix and functioning based on principles of tensegrity; basically, if you compress, the force is distributed discontinuously - that is, it disperses "randomly" through the tissue, so as to prevent overload of tissue and subsequent mechanical failure (of course, a force can be strong enough to override this); conversely, when the CT is elongated, the fibers direct force continuously - this strengthens the resistance to tearing (which can again be overridden); when the CT is "active", which is what happens as the result of moving "harmoniously" w/one's breath, the ground reaction force, and the force delivered by the opponent, then one is able to sense and function in a way that is consistent with what is described classical as so-called "internal"; anyway, if you are looking for an excellent description of this from a "non-scientific" perspective, Tai Chi Bob is the man to "talk" to here: for him, the experience came first, followed by the research (for me, it was the other way around - but we both ended up in the same place, which is a strong indicator of the universality of these principles);

Interesting.

[taai gihk yahn]

Very true and of course the standing practice also helps as an internal linking exercise.

not sure what you mean by "linking" - if you mean whole body connectedness in terms of economy of movement, sure; meaning that, when you move at one joint, every other joint in the body adjusts so that the total net tension in the body stays balanced

It is unfortunate that nowadays, specially with the knucklehead culture prevalent in the MA community, it is difficult to implement such training as regularly and as widespread as one would like.

well, realistically, it just takes too long for most people (when I first practiced standing, it required anywhere from 30 min. to an hour at a time to get any sort of effect; now it's immediate, but only after ~12 years...), so I can understand why most people aren't interested; and in terms of functionality, I believe that there are really more efficient ways to gain fighting skill, at least in the short term, which seems to confer an advantage in most cases; of course, I am aware of the argument that developing this skill in the long run will make you a better fighter, but I don't know if I agree w/that necessarily, given the many variables; but for me it's a worthwhile endeavor because of the health benefits, which are indisputable, and more practical for the average person to develop than fighting skill anyway; still, it does require a certain commitment towards introspection - true "internal" practice involves a psychological dimension that most people are not willing to experience

I would only agree that there are more similarities than many think but at the same time there may also be more differences than many think as well, if we are indeed discussing real/authentic kung fu styles.

well, it's a continuum of sorts: taiji and baji share more similarities in terms of expression of "ging" than they do w/bagua, but taiji and bagua both function out of similar postural principles

Of course, wether your statement holds true will depend on the individual kung fu styles being compared.

or even individual practitioners...

Interesting.[/QUOTE]
I have always found it to be as such; tensegrity is one of those so-called "western" concepts that bridges the gap nicely...

[Hardwork108]

not sure what you mean by "linking" - if you mean whole body connectedness in terms of economy of movement, sure; meaning that, when you move at one joint, every other joint in the body adjusts so that the total net tension in the body stays balanced

It goes a "little" deeper than that and it is not something that can be explained on an internet board and to be honest it is not even a subject matter to be discussed in a forum thread.

well, realistically, it just takes too long for most people (when I first practiced standing, it required anywhere from 30 min. to an hour at a time to get any sort of effect; now it's immediate, but only after ~12 years...), so I can understand why most people aren't interested; and in terms of functionality, I believe that there are really more efficient ways to gain fighting skill, at least in the short term, which seems to confer an advantage in most cases; of course, I am aware of the argument that developing this skill in the long run will make you a better fighter, but I don't know if I agree w/that necessarily, given the many variables; but for me it's a worthwhile endeavor because of the health benefits, which are indisputable, and more practical for the average person to develop than fighting skill anyway; still, it does require a certain commitment towards introspection - true "internal" practice involves a psychological dimension that most people are not willing to experience

I know what you mean exactly but yet you did practice in such manner (and my respects) whereas there are many who would not put up with this kind of methodology and that is where I bring my knucklehead example because these people need to have someone jumping on their heads and kicking the crap out of them from almost day one, for them to believe that they are "learning" a martial art, otherwise it is all a "fantasy", they say.

well, it's a continuum of sorts: taiji and baji share more similarities in terms of expression of "ging" than they do w/bagua, but taiji and bagua both function out of similar postural principles

And furthermore baji is a more external style, so much so that traditionally it was combined with the internal Piqua Jang style to balance its hardness. Fascinating subject area, the TCMAs, one must admit.

or even individual practitioners...

Agreed.

I have always found it to be as such; tensegrity is one of those so-called "western" concepts that bridges the gap nicely...

Hey, don't some people say that tensegrity exercises were practiced by North American Indians? Still, I suppose that is still the West, if these people are right, even if the actual roots of these indigenous people may have been the East.

[Yoshiyahu]

You guys got some more videos of concave chest...