Just good body mechanics?

[grasshopper 2.0]

I should clarify - it is not my place to say when it comes to someone else's training (unless they ask me specifically). And as for my own training, ya I don't take an external/interal approach.

[Hendrik]

Why do we need to wait 20 years? I think the evidence is in.

Sure, One doesnt need to wait 20 years.
The evidence is either one know it or not. if one know it, it might be has been practice since 20 years ago. if one doesnt know it then another 2000000000000 years still not practicing it.


Face it.

what to discuss if one doesnt know what is TCMA IMA?

be it taking the position defending it or debunk it.

It totally doesnt make sense to talk about something one is clueless.

[Hendrik]

For the sake of argument, let's say that some concept actually hinders your development. You believe some idea, but your belief is wrong. OK?

Would that be something you might want to know and perhaps eliminate? It seems to me that if your further development was your objective, then that would be important to you.

Sure, how many athletes take illegal drug which could damage their body or killing themself for sake of Winning at all costs?

is those believe right?

Would that be something you might want to know and perhaps eliminate? It seems to me that if your further development was your objective, then that would be important to you?

[t_niehoff]

Sure, One doesnt need to wait 20 years.
The evidence is either one know it or not. if one know it, it might be has been practice since 20 years ago. if one doesnt know it then another 2000000000000 years still not practicing it.

Face it.

what to discuss if one doesnt know what is TCMA IMA?

be it taking the position defending it or debunk it.

It totally doesnt make sense to talk about something one is clueless.

Hendrik, a person doesn't need to do or "understand" something to see evidence that it works. I don't "understand" rocket science, but I can see that it works.

Body mechanics are, as even you pointed out, task specific. Give an "internal" guy a hip throw and an "external" guy a hip throw, and they'll end up doing the same thing because there is an optimal way to perform that task -- and by doing it, you will find those naturally. So it isn't necessary or useful to take an internal/external approach if you want to teach or develop your hip throw; instead, just learn the mechanics from someone who can do the hip throw, and get out and practice doing that task (trying to hip throw people) to develop skill doing that task. With that skill will come better mechanics. All the internal/external stuff does is prevent you from looking for the optimal mechanics.

[t_niehoff]

Sure, how many athletes take illegal drug which could damage their body or killing themself for sake of Winning at all costs?

is those believe right?

Would that be something you might want to know and perhaps eliminate? It seems to me that if your further development was your objective, then that would be important to you?

Hendrik, that's intellectually dishonest. This is a discussion about body mechanics -- sure SOME athletes do these things. But most don't. How athletes train has nothing to do with those that cheat with performance enhancing drugs.

[Hendrik]

person doesn't need to do or "understand" something to see evidence that it works. I don't "understand" rocket science, but I can see that it works.

Sure, if one know where to look.

Give an "internal" guy a hip throw and an "external" guy a hip throw, and they'll end up doing the same thing because there is an optimal way to perform that task -- and by doing it, you will find those naturally.

That is what you think not what it is.

[Hendrik]

This is a discussion about body mechanics -- sure SOME athletes do these things. But most don't. How athletes train has nothing to do with those that cheat with performance enhancing drugs.

Sure, fill a car with super gasoline and it will run faster, but the tear and wear and damaging effect is not mention. when winning at all cost is the goal, look at those who got caught in Olympic and ask how many didnt get caught? is that about body mechanics or is it about "as soon as no one find out" everything is ok for sake of winning bottom line?

also, can a person with ashma, or other chronic disease using the same athletes body mechanics ? can s/he be an athletes?

[anerlich]

I agree with the basic premise of the OP.

I think it is not as simple as "one best way to do everything", because there are many variables at play.

The "best" way to throw a punch varies depending on whether your major concern is sheer impact power, being able to keep a strong defense while punching, staying mobile, whether kicks are allowed, whether takedowns and grappling are allowed, how important it is to immediatelly follow up with another technique, etc.

Most try to compromise between these often conflicting aims, but give different weights to the different aspects. Hence you get people advocating differnet ways of punching.

Also body types have a roel to play here, as does personal preference.

We all need to get form one place to another, but there are many ways to do that - walk, run, cycle, car, motorcycle, plane, etc. That doesn't even go into what ype of car, etc. might suit one best.

And I can'r see WTF the use of illegal drugs has to do with this discussion, unless your body mechanics change with them

[sihing]

I agree with the basic premise of the OP.

I think it is not as simple as "one best way to do everything", because there are many variables at play.

The "best" way to throw a punch varies depending on whether your major concern is sheer impact power, being able to keep a strong defense while punching, staying mobile, whether kicks are allowed, whether takedowns and grappling are allowed, how important it is to immediatelly follow up with another technique, etc.

Most try to compromise between these often conflicting aims, but give different weights to the different aspects. Hence you get people advocating differnet ways of punching.

Also body types have a roel to play here, as does personal preference.

We all need to get form one place to another, but there are many ways to do that - walk, run, cycle, car, motorcycle, plane, etc. That doesn't even go into what ype of car, etc. might suit one best.

And I can'r see WTF the use of illegal drugs has to do with this discussion, unless your body mechanics change with them

Good post Anerlich...

I think Hendrik was referring to the fact that T likes to use top level athletes as examples, and as has recentled been brought to light, lots of them use illegal substances to enhance their performance. That doesn't mean to imply that they aren't using proper body mechanics as well, at least in my perspective.

In fighting, there are too many variables at play to say one method is the best, as your examples demonstrated. In the end, if you have no timing, you won't be able to use your body mechanics to deliver your tools. So what is more important, Timing or Body Mechanics? Neither, IMO, as both are of equal importance, just like your brain is no more important than your heart, as with out one or the other you won't be alive. It's all about making it one within your movement and ability to use it effectively. Some can do this better than others, why we don't always know why (natural abilities, training, coaching, experience???).

James

[t_niehoff]

I think Hendrik was referring to the fact that T likes to use top level athletes as examples, and as has recentled been brought to light, lots of them use illegal substances to enhance their performance. That doesn't mean to imply that they aren't using proper body mechanics as well, at least in my perspective.

Look at it from the performance perspective -- how can you know what IS optimal mechanics for doing something except by looking at what the best performers are doing?

The whole "drug" issue is a distraction -- that has nothing to do with body mechanics.

In fighting, there are too many variables at play to say one method is the best, as your examples demonstrated. In the end, if you have no timing, you won't be able to use your body mechanics to deliver your tools. So what is more important, Timing or Body Mechanics? Neither, IMO, as both are of equal importance, just like your brain is no more important than your heart, as with out one or the other you won't be alive. It's all about making it one within your movement and ability to use it effectively. Some can do this better than others, why we don't always know why (natural abilities, training, coaching, experience???).

James

It's not that too many variables are at play, it's that you CAN'T use one sort of body mechanic to do everything since body mechanics are task specific and so every different thing you do will use different mechanics. Of course a person needs timing, the ability to use those mechanics at the optimal time and in the appropriate situation. Mechanics is just one piece of the puzzle.

[t_niehoff]

Sure, fill a car with super gasoline and it will run faster, but the tear and wear and damaging effect is not mention. when winning at all cost is the goal, look at those who got caught in Olympic and ask how many didnt get caught? is that about body mechanics or is it about "as soon as no one find out" everything is ok for sake of winning bottom line?

also, can a person with ashma, or other chronic disease using the same athletes body mechanics ? can s/he be an athletes?

I think you are laboring under a false impression and confusing several things.

With regard to your false impression: Optimal body mechanics for performing a task will be the most "healthy" way of doing something. As an example, consider lifting a heavy weight -- you will be more likely to be injured lifting it using poor body mechanics than with proper, good body mechanics. Optimal body mechanics involves finding the way in which the body best performs, where it is strongest, etc.

Concern for optimal body mechanics isn't a "win at any cost" sort of thing. It's just recognizing that physically, there is an optimal way of doing any physical task.

With regard to your confusion: You keep pointing to all kinds of things that have nothing to do with optimal body mechanics.

[Pacman]

Optimal body mechanics is not the same thing as "internal" or "external". My point is that there is no such thing as internal or external -- just optimal mechanics for a specific task. And that when we begin to look at things other than that way, it only adds confusion.

For example, pushing a car. There is an optimal way of using your body to push a stalled car (the task). That's not "internal" or "external". Same with anything we do. Would talking about internal or external HELP someone learn or develop their car pushing mechanics?

i dont know where you got this concept of a "universal" mechanic. ive never heard of that in any internal art.

internal arts focus on complete relaxation and complete coordination of the body and the mind for speed/power

other trainers in other arts tell their trainees to relax and im sure to be coordinated..but they do not go through the relaxation training that internalists focus on.

in general, MT people will not do qigong for relaxation. in general MT people will not do 1000s of repetitions of movements in the air, focusing on being completely relaxed. in general, MT people will not do movements as slow as a snail, completely relaxed, every movement perfectly in order to coordinate their body and mind. the list goes on.

its all about different approaches to fighting and different approaches to training.

[Liddel]

I also agree with the OP. I think in a learning sence it may be helpful for an individual to have attributes emphasised through the internal external explanation/ approach. People learn in different ways and have different understanding that a teacher needs to tap into in the learing process.

Moreover its just a different way of getting an individual to grasp certain ideas to help them intergrate it into application.

However once you get to a certain level in performing a task through repetitive training i think the lines should begin to blur... where breathing tensions body behaviors are integral parts of the overall mechanics that come naturally from repetitive training.

For refference one could refer to internal and external IMO but at the end of the day they are sum parts of a whole.

It really is reverse engineering IMHO - i dont think long ago when systems where being nutted out that they theorised about internals and THEN set about applying them, rather through trial and error of actually doing specific tasks it was then improved on and aspects now called internals naturally evolved...

So by very nature it has more to do with mechanics than people want to admit.

I think also that those that are adamant about the internals being the only way to achieve quote "high level KF" should take that mentality and apply the theory to the animal kingdom.

If you have a critical mind youll know where im comming from.

Thats my quick take.

DREW

[t_niehoff]

i dont know where you got this concept of a "universal" mechanic. ive never heard of that in any internal art.

Are you saying that internal arts are using the same body mechanics as everyone else?

internal arts focus on complete relaxation and complete coordination of the body and the mind for speed/power

You can't have "complete relaxation" since our muscles to move, to maintain posture, etc. need to contract.

All athletes have coordination and focus. How is this any different?

other trainers in other arts tell their trainees to relax and im sure to be coordinated..but they do not go through the relaxation training that internalists focus on.

This is one great example of why "internal art" training doesn't work. All athletes learn when to exert themselves, when to rest, when to relax, when to explode, etc. by doing the activity (sport) itself. You can't learn how to do this is boxing or grappling by not boxing or grappling.

in general, MT people will not do qigong for relaxation. in general MT people will not do 1000s of repetitions of movements in the air, focusing on being completely relaxed. in general, MT people will not do movements as slow as a snail, completely relaxed, every movement perfectly in order to coordinate their body and mind. the list goes on.

MT fighters train like athletes. And that's why they can be "relaxed" while fighting. And why "internal martial artists" can't.

its all about different approaches to fighting and different approaches to training.

Yes, it is. And my point is that one approach doesn't make any sense and doesn't produce good results -- just the opposite.

[Hendrik]

Look at it from the performance perspective -- how can you know what IS optimal mechanics for doing something except by looking at what the best performers are doing?

.

What is best performers? those who take drugs? hahahaha

a 50 year old Terence will not do the same mechanics as what a 25 year old Terence do. Not to mention, how could one uses a different person " best performer" as one's reference, human is not robot, even robot, there is a different between Sony made or GE made.

Forget about those best performers reference.