Just good body mechanics?

[k gledhill]

This is one of my pet peeves about alot of the Lop Sau, Gor Sau platform drills out there...

I only spent a few months on co operative repetitive drills like Chi Sau and Poon sau. After that you were introduced to larger resistance new actions and it became spontaneous and un co operative... so it became a very introductory sparring platform IMO.

People have then offered the opinion your engaging in a drill with rules and its still un realistic and while im not trying to say it's fighting, if one person chooses to dis engage or try an action outside of the particular 'ruleset' for lack of a better word we punch/trade which makes it still somewhat realistic, especially if resistance spontenaeity(sp?) and intent to catch the body are present.

To many Chunners remain in the co operative repetitive stage of drills etc which adds more fantasy and takes away from functionality even more so than not adding sparring to the mix.

Its easy to see those people as they try to complicate the drill perhaps using several actions before catching the target when a Pak Da would have been the ticket...theres thousands of examples.

If you know what i mean...

DREW

good post,
the vt drillers have to keep the knowledge that they are 'drilling' using the tan/jum positions basic stance to move from as a starting point in 'drilling' ...not to strike with arms in 1-2 actions 'drilling'...not trying to stick to arms...this is simply because your 'drilling' with a 'partner' in a mutual exercise to develop HITTING SKILLS .

To hit people you try to use 2 free arms a lead [man sao] and a rear [ vu sao] in endless non thinking rotation, only relying an a 'working lead' to remove/clear a path to keep striking with man/vu ....

If we maintain 2 free hands in rotation shifting with and to a fight we become fluid.
And are able to face any action or force with techniques worked earlier in 'drills'.

One thing to maintain is that when sparring VT DOESNT FIGHT VT in other words one of the sparring partners adopts a random attack mode, not a vt mode ..because if your both doing vt your still 'DRILLING'


I found that in my early training time doing vt I was being shown a lot 'drills' as 'moves'....one classic misunderstood drill is the turning tan sao punch aka stand in front of someone in a basic stance and turn so that the tan blocks the incoming punch while punching with the other hand....'drill' to train the facing outside flank, not stand inside 2 arms wailing on you the extending punch is actually a jumming strike, while the spent strike returns to an elbow in position/'drill' in tan shape to recover the SLT idea of keeping the elbows tight to the centerline before striking...drilling ....you should do this alone without anyone trying to hit you, its just for your stance and elbows...not so a guy walks up stands square to you doesnt advance and starts to throw haymakers sure you can try to make it work , but then all the higher, guiding ideas /tactics/concepts just got thrown out ....none of which states you stand in front of someone and deliver magic ['drills' ] bullets like your superman .

1-2 actions in dan chi-sao 'drill' not using the wrist to try to block a punch that is nicely delivered right under the wrongly applied 'wristing' action

long list of redundant drills fighting is a lot simpler , less 'arm names' going on , more aggressive entry and maintaining the attacking ...

[Chango]

Terence,

I can completely understand why you have your point of view. However we cannot assume the TMA's are complete BS as your post suggest. As with anything quality does vary.

I can only say at this point GSP and Lyoto Michida both continue to find value in their TMA training. That is very evident in all of their interviews and of course they would not bother mentioning the fact that they trained in these arts .

I can personally relate to this. After my father moved to the west coast and I was looking for another teacher/ trainer I went to a few different schools. I trained more then 1 year at one school. Now that I look back I feel that school was a total waste of my time. The issue was not just the school but it was the teacher and the training culture and me. I still to this day cannot identify with that particular art. So up to this point I do not mention this as part of my past training etc...

I do however agree with you in the since I think in martialarts in general alot of what is viewed as traditionalism has gotten in the way of real and practical training! On the flip side of this I have seen many times and I mean alot since the MMA movement gyms and schools that teach very little quality and the better athelete determines the out come of the fight. Just brawling and forced sloppy hold/locks/chokes. That's the problem when something goes mainstreme you get a lot of poor quatlity! I can say also at the same time the more people do it the better the top schools become as the competition grows! Two sided coin!

Let's not forget BJJ is a traditional art and so is the original Mui Tai. Rickson and Royce and the Gracies have proven that TMAs are very functional. We cannot forget Anderson Silvia as well.

[Chango]

Terence,

If sport training is your measure then I agree! There is a best way to train for particular event. MMA has it's rules and equipment and you start from a face to face one person to one person of equal experience and skill. (or close)

However if you are discussing self-defense and or combat. That is a different story. Let me be clear I'm not sideing with the idiots that say "MMA stuff does not work in real fight" I think that is silly. MMA skill will without question enhance your self-defense and combat skill. But it must be said if you are going to play a particular sport you must train in it's fundementals I.E. GSP and Michida's MMA prep. But again what makes them great fighters goes to their complete picture!

I'll throw something out there. Matt Hughes was not a traditionally trained martialartist. He did Highschool/college wrestling. He is one the top UFC fighter but he has major trouble with those who have a TMA background. I think that became evident when he faced GSP the second time. As a matter of fact I think no matter how many times they step in the ring GSP will own him 4 out of 5 times. But that's just my opinion.

[chusauli]

Hi Chango,

I think Terence's bringing up sports is that sports shows a modern paradigm of athleticism and training other than traditional training.

Let's take something that may not be related to martial arts as an example, kettlebells.

The average person first introduced to them might have a real difficult time with a 16 Kg KB to do swings, cleans, jerks, long cycle, high pulls, and snatches. They might be able to crank out a few. The idea of sets and reps is still far off. Not dropping them on their foot, or injuring yourself with a lift would be the main goals.

Later, when that person gets some coaching, they might be able to pull off 3 sets of 10, or 5 sets of 5 reps per exercise and consider that a tough workout.

But if they go into competitive Kettlebell Lifting and learn from a world class coach like Valery Fedorenko, you have to start doing 78 jerks, and 75 snatches per side with a 32 Kg Kettlebell if you are over 98 Kg in competition.

The point is, with sport/competitive KB training, you do much more than get in shape - you train with a competitive edge, figuring on ways to reduce friction, powder the hands, increase weight/reps, rest inbetween each lift, breath, etc. and you're competing with athletes with similar training. Pro's also show a different work ethic and standard, not shared by backyard practitioners.

It is completely different from backyard training to get in shape, or supplement martial arts, or a women wanting to tone up, or prevent osteoporosis...

If we use this comparison of what Terence is bringing up, we can see what may be lacking in today's TMA training vs. MMA training.

Best regards,

[sihing]

Hi Chango,

I think Terence's bringing up sports is that sports shows a modern paradigm of athleticism and training other than traditional training.

Let's take something that may not be related to martial arts as an example, kettlebells.

The average person first introduced to them might have a real difficult time with a 16 Kg KB to do swings, cleans, jerks, long cycle, high pulls, and snatches. They might be able to crank out a few. The idea of sets and reps is still far off. Not dropping them on their foot, or injuring yourself with a lift would be the main goals.

Later, when that person gets some coaching, they might be able to pull off 3 sets of 10, or 5 sets of 5 reps per exercise and consider that a tough workout.

But if they go into competitive Kettlebell Lifting and learn from a world class coach like Valery Fedorenko, you have to start doing 78 jerks, and 75 snatches per side with a 32 Kg Kettlebell if you are over 98 Kg in competition.

The point is, with sport/competitive KB training, you do much more than get in shape - you train with a competitive edge, figuring on ways to reduce friction, powder the hands, increase weight/reps, rest inbetween each lift, breath, etc. and you're competing with athletes with similar training. Pro's also show a different work ethic and standard, not shared by backyard practitioners.

It is completely different from backyard training to get in shape, or supplement martial arts, or a women wanting to tone up, or prevent osteoporosis...

If we use this comparison of what Terence is bringing up, we can see what may be lacking in today's TMA training vs. MMA training.

Best regards,

Anything that is done at the level of a professional, is different from the backyard, just trying to get tone type of workouts for sure. Can we get to our goals faster by following the example set forth by the pro's? I'm not sure, because if your intent is not the same as the pros, then you will not put in the same effort, nor will you care about the details like a pro does. For example, I've been working out with weights for many years now. In my 20's I got sick of looking at pictures of myself, being to thin/skinny. So I educated myself on how to lift weights, talked to a few people then began the process. Lots of improvement happened over the first couple of months, I put on about 10lbs of muscle in 3mths, but then the plateau happened, and all of a sudden my ability to add on more muscle slowed. Since then I've had ups and downs when it came to working out. Since my metabolism has slowed down since my 20's, I don't find it difficult anymore to put on weight. And I'm pretty satisfied with the shape of my body, it's good enough for my needs and looks. But if I wanted to I already know exactly what I need to do to add more muscle on, the question is do I want to put that work in? Personally NO I don't.

All of this stuff, is based on personal needs. Yeah, if I wanted to be the so called "complete" fighter, then I could go to the more professional gyms and train with them and become better overall, but that is not my goal. I do what I do because I like it, it's as simple as that. All this talk about fighting, and can you do it or not is pretty funny to me since none of us here are fighters. Fighting to me is about two people wanting to find out who is the best fighter, their ability to defeat the other in combat, a competition of sorts. For me I have no interest in that, why would I? To satisfy my ego by overcoming and dominating another, to test myself? What am I testing? If I defeat someone in a sparring match what I have proven, and do I have to continually go thru this process to provide proof of my abilities to myself? You know what, if I spar with someone, I'm not going to put in 100% effort, as I have no ill intent on defeating this guy anyways as I don't really care. When I played competative tennis I was the worst practice player around, because I didn't care, the match is where I needed to play well and did play well. LOL, all of this sounds like the dog chasing his tale if you ask me.

Concerning WC, within the training system, there is testing methods that provide evidence of your skills and if you are learning something or not. I've met up with people from other lineages thru seminars I've done, with no problems. I've also met up with guys better than me and that is where I see what I have to work on, no problem. The whole process of learning, experiencing, teaching and then repeating is fun, and that is why I continue to participate. Just like sometimes posting on this forum is fun, when it isn't I leave.

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi Chango,

I think Terence's bringing up sports is that sports shows a modern paradigm of athleticism and training other than traditional training.

Let's take something that may not be related to martial arts as an example, kettlebells.

The average person first introduced to them might have a real difficult time with a 16 Kg KB to do swings, cleans, jerks, long cycle, high pulls, and snatches. They might be able to crank out a few. The idea of sets and reps is still far off. Not dropping them on their foot, or injuring yourself with a lift would be the main goals.

Later, when that person gets some coaching, they might be able to pull off 3 sets of 10, or 5 sets of 5 reps per exercise and consider that a tough workout.

But if they go into competitive Kettlebell Lifting and learn from a world class coach like Valery Fedorenko, you have to start doing 78 jerks, and 75 snatches per side with a 32 Kg Kettlebell if you are over 98 Kg in competition.

The point is, with sport/competitive KB training, you do much more than get in shape - you train with a competitive edge, figuring on ways to reduce friction, powder the hands, increase weight/reps, rest inbetween each lift, breath, etc. and you're competing with athletes with similar training. Pro's also show a different work ethic and standard, not shared by backyard practitioners.

It is completely different from backyard training to get in shape, or supplement martial arts, or a women wanting to tone up, or prevent osteoporosis...

If we use this comparison of what Terence is bringing up, we can see what may be lacking in today's TMA training vs. MMA training.

Best regards,

Post should be stickied !

[Chango]

Well said Robert C!!!

I agree the culture of TMA is much different in today's world

[chusauli]

Many thanks Chango, James, Sanjuro!

I was watching my son's western fencing class today and struck at how functional the class is taught. Its very different from TMA's where we teach a form, exercises, applications, sticking hands, etc.

If you ever have a chance to see an Olympic sport being taught, especially a martial related one, you'll notice several things about functionality. First off the equipment is designed to be used safely - a mask, a bib, and a foil with a blunted rounded edge and a flexible temper is used. It made contact worthwhile and possible.

The class started out with footwork, simple stuff - advance, retreat, advancing cross over, retreating crossover, lunge, reset to on guard. Then the teacher had the kids play a variation of mixing up the footwork. He later made it into a game of "Simon Says"... Although linear, the footwork was excellent, fast and to the point.

Later he did some lunging drills by dropping a target and having the students individually lunge and stick the target.

He taught some parrying drills 6, 4, 8, 7 which correspond to our 5 corners, and drilled each fencer with a partner.

They did some fencing to work the drills of parrying.

He introduced the drill of disengagement to lunge, then had the students drill it with a partner.

Then they did more fencing with the drill of disengaging.

They finally ended with the class each fencing one opponent in succession - the person who scored first became "King/Queen of the Castle" and took on all comers.

I left the class shaking my head - how would WCK be taught in this manner? Everything was done for maximum efficiency and functionality to score. All was realistic. Yes, granted, its not fighting with real swords or dueling, and the students are taught etiquette and to acknowledged they've been scored on. There's no chest thumping, calling someone names, they salute each partner, and overall, its darn fun, and a good sweat. One little angel was a tigress with the foil and even gave the coach a run for the money. And I can see how fast theses kids can advance.

TMA's - we have to rethink. You can give a child a sport and have them grow and just get better at the game. And they even have enough to ad lib and experiment with it and improve their timing, focus and strategy. Modern sports are a good barometer of useful, practical, functional teaching.

I admit I'm rather dumbstruck right now.

[Hendrik]

If we use this comparison of what Terence is bringing up, we can see what may be lacking in today's TMA training vs. MMA training.

IMHO,

This comparision is not valid for TCMA IMA.


MMA training is for those who have good health good body and young.

BUT, For those who are less healthy or sick or old age cant Do MMA or else they end up more sick or even dead.





TCMA IMA using NON-Dissipative Standing post and Qi Channel opening to transcent the body for both health and power issue. That is not for Competition or sport.

TCMA IMA is not a competition sport. TCMA IMA is targeting to do 1, transcent the body to a higher level for health and 2, maximum destruction or protection.

This above definition is what I learn from the writing of Wang Xiang Zai and Ma Li-Dang.

In fact, Wang Xiang-Zai specifically put it that " any excersice or training that cause one to feeling forcefull in the diapham is damaging the body. "

Ma Li-Dang specifically put it that Sport is not for those with health condition such as Kidney, Heart, lung..... issues it is too much dissipative and could cause serious damaging. When one already has health condition one needs to cultivate the Qi and re build the body, only after that one be able to do martial art stuffs.

Sure, those who is proffesional such as Wang Xiang-Zai or Ma Li-Dang could use his cultivation for challenging.....ect But again, those are not for sport.


Terence's view is great for the Young and careless and strong. Those are sport and not everyone suitable for. in fact it is a suicide for those who has health condition.


As for the maximum damage? that doesnt needs alots similar to it doesnt matter how many reps one can do bench press, a knife or a bullet always can cause the damage. True fighting is not based on what Terence think it is.

If Mas Oyama fighting 6 people still end up in hospital. What can those who Terence think as the best...etc get ambush in different situation do? NOTHING or NOT much at all. This is not a movie and not a sport.

and that is the realty of fighting.




When I was very young and live in Penang Malaysia, there is a case of a Rich young man who is also a Judo Champion got kidnap but due to his Judo Champion ship the bad guys put even more control on him and end up he die tragically.

so, what is fighting? what is selfdefence? you know what I rather go train my IMA and pray more and avoid walking into trouble. To train in fighting? be a gung ho bushido? forget about it.



As a conclusion, the sport Terence bring up and the TCMA IMA the Chinese create are two different things. What to compare for who is better? None.
Just my thougths.

[chusauli]

And that is the difference between TMA and Sports (or shall I say "Martial Sports")... Hendrik does make good points.

I am not saying WCK is a martial sport; it is still a martial art.

[Hendrik]

And that is the difference between TMA and Sports (or shall I say "Martial Sports")... Hendrik does make good points.

I am not saying WCK is a martial sport; it is still a martial art.

RC,

Agree.

and the trouble we need to face is between WCK is a martial art or WCK is a Martial entertainment art : IE game or dance or even cult while idolized the Sifu and fantasying Dao and ZEN which has little to do with martial training and real life.

Just some thoughts

[chusauli]

In today's day and age, many want entertainment. Students pay their money and want to be entertained without hard work or real cultivation. They want to do forms, some weapons, a little sticking, some sparring and get the next belt or sash. They play disciple, and actually schools these days say they teach "self-respect" or "self discipline", not self defense.

Teachers automatically bill with their credit card services to collect the next month's fee's whether they show up or not. Vanpools to pick up young students provide a few hours of babysitting for stressed parents; if the kids get actual skills is amazing. Most will never accomplish anything, and their only achievement is that belt, sash, or certificate. Then a child can say, "that's what I did when I was a kid!", before they get into the rat race and go into the workforce, and raise rugrats of their own. Perhaps its better than overweight kids growing up on products full of high fructose corn syrup and Pokemon on their Nintendo DS or Wii systems.

This is the era of fast food martial arts. You have a story, want to make people part of that story and "honorable tradition", and bill them, all the while supporting your family. The tournaments, trophies and competitions are really only for school visibility and attracting more students. And these days, all participants get a trophy just for entering.

How's that as a summary for what is taught for martial arts here in the year 2009? Compare that to you or any other oldtimers who suffered to learn their arts.

If you are one of these instructors, please note I am not criticizing you, its just a statement of what is. I think its great you provide for your family.

Don't get me started on the health industry and food industry....

[LSWCTN1]

i just wanted to bring up a few points, dont know if they are relevant to this post but...

here is the greatest p4p in the history of mma. at 7.50 and 8.40 he would have head his face stomped beyond all recognition on the street.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEWeQE2LwJU

whilst a good, infact excellent, training method - sparring with any mma fighter or otherwise does have its limitations

also, i personally dont feel that even a trained bjj guy would deliberately take a real (outside of sport) fight to the ground. maybe use his training to facilitate a standing choke/submission but not a deliberate 'roll' on the floor

I'm sure even knifefighter would back me up on this

so if you are training in the most realistic way for the street why practice something that you want to avoid?

of course that a rhetorical question, i know the answer and so does everybody here - but for this exact reason please dont discount other things that you feel to be unnecessary.

like your own sifu said just today, he didnt understand certain aspects and why they where part of the sytem. until he was shown why. its human nature to discredit and discount something until they see that it has worked. like you have done with TCMA and its training methods. maybe one day you will be shown and your opinion will change. maybe your right. and maybe if you was to be shown, you will put it down to a freak of nature

[Hendrik]

In today's day and age, many want entertainment. Students pay their money and want to be entertained without hard work or real cultivation. They want to do forms, some weapons, a little sticking, some sparring and get the next belt or sash. They play disciple, and actually schools these days say they teach "self-respect" or "self discipline", not self defense.....

That is reality.

even MMA I see it same, as entertainment.

I know those who suffer sickness that has to rely on thier IMA training to survive and hopefully get well. I know those who have to wake up 5am do a 1.5 Hour training , 45min Noon , 1Hour before sleep. No sex no soft drink not even cake.
and they dont know when they going to get heal or cure but walk the path day in day out...... because this is real fighting ---survival when there is no hope from the medicine doctors or western medicine. Those are real serious training.

I know lots of those in China and asia, Taiji Sifu such as Ma Hong, Chen Man Ching ,

Zhou Qian Chuan the ex gate holder of Emei 12 Zhuang (an army major general, Zhou Qian Chuan, who was also a Western medical doctor. Major General Zhou had serious internal cracking in his liver caused by the violent vibrations of a bomb that had exploded very close to him. He had tried all the famous Western medical doctors and no one could heal him. Grandmaster Yong Yan befriended the major general, treating and curing his ailments with Emei Qigong healing techniques.)


(side topic, dont WCner feel great that SLT is from Emei 12 Zhuang where there is technology to heal the liver issue above? that is how deep SLT's mother art is even with today's Western medicine standard. Bottom line Zhou was heal. I do feel great because SLT is a real deal)


They all heal and become advance IMA after the body heal. perhaps because of thier survival perhaps because they really work deep into knowing their mind/body just to be able to live.


How many could going through that and get the real thing? 1%?


Thus, I dont believe in the so called figthing training because they are still make believe. When one has to face one's own death unless one train that is what real training is. I always salute those who heal and become a great martial artists because they face dead and win once.

as for good body mechanics, can one take a deep breath with ease or doing a KI without stress the internal organs? if not what body mechanics? one has not even start to learn how to handle Oxigen in take yet.


The foward pressure of doing SLT in YJKYM is a kissed of death for take down because this broken the law of Broken sharpness or Poh Jian. when the SLT can nolonger do Boomerang, that is when the take down is easy. With the Boomerang, take down is really difficult.

bottom line, WCK is a close body art and it must not Poh Jian and it must not givin others a lead on Shun Sou Cien Yang or Converniently pull away the Goat. to the worst some even do Broken Arrow where even worst then Poh Jian as I have mention years ago in this forum.

With a forward pressure habit, Coverniently pull away the Goat is the problem, thus, there is no suprise for WCner got take down easy because they lost thier gyroscope and boomerang/Sickling power and only sitting in poor forward pressing goat. and they lost thier goat.

With the gyroscope and Boomerang, you pull him you got cut, you push him you got cut. you hug him you got cut. That is WCK.



Why I always mention the White crance + Emei 12 Zhuang? you want your Gyroscope and Boomerange power back? Up to you.



just some thoughts.

[Liddel]

There's no doubt that TMAs have good, useful techniques, mechancis, etc. But the way they are taught/trained doesn't produce good results. If it did, then GSP and Machida wouldn't have NEEDED to do all the functional training that they did.

I see your points and thier value / relevance T but can we really say for sure they needed more functional training or just more experience at a higher level of competition..... College tennis players have the function but if they were to play fed express at wimbledon its obvious they'd need to lift thier game.

I say this cause it almost seems like your saying GSP or Lyoto were not functional untill they got to those other arts / training approaches ?, where as i see it as they increased thier already great functionality of 'insert style here' and took a different approached based on the platform / task- cage fighting.

I don't agree. In fact, if we try to use body mechanics that aren't very natural (something we will normally do) they won't work, certainly not under high levels of pressure or stress.

Body mechanics is using your body in a specific way to accomplish some task. Our bodies are hard-wired, via "design", to move in certain specific ways. You can't get around that. It's when we try -- when we don't move naturally -- that we f#ck everything up.

My point was how similar is a style of fighting to every day natural actions ?
Boxing actions are certainly closer and more familiar to the lamen than Bong Sau and other Wing Chun actions my friend

Shouldnt that mean you already seperate the method of learning the mechanics between WC and 'insert style here' as a bi-product of this fact ?

I guess it leads to this -

time/effort) they will learn and develop the ability to perform it skillfully too.

WCK's mechanics are different from boxing because the task is different. Boxing isn't attached fighting, it is unattached striking. WCK is an attached fighitng method that combines striking and grappling. So naturally, the mechanics are different. But if you ask an untrained person to hold and hit, for example, then it will begin to look very similar to WCK mechanics.

Well i can only speak to my own experience and i have not found the same results. But if thats your expereince fine.

And are we ok with things looking the same or actually functionig the same...cause anyone who naturally busts out a good Bong(for example) in your senario would be unique IMO and not the norm. In fact i believe through my own experience they would end up looking more like wrestling.

Good discussion though Im off for a boys weekend to watch a buddy in a Boxing comp. police vs firefighters...Im sure ill be mulling over your POV go the 5.0

Take care

DREW