Simultaneous block + strikes don't work?

[k gledhill]

off topic but in wsl vt the hips and elbows should connect for force , not just a chain punch, in William Chungs defense, He is just showing one aspect of a vt system...i know he's not going to stand there and hit me like a speed ball in a real fight huminahuminahhuminah with my head rocking back and forth from the onslaught

Ive learned from door work that hitting too fast doesnt do anything...guys who want to throw lots of punches fast, we see them in fights , guys throwing lots of little shots with no real stopping power...
the recipient is just getting tapped , cuts maybe with bare fists, but one good slam and they should be doing the 6 ft butt slide ...

[chusauli]

LOL! Those 8 - 10 taps per second are not like real punches! You hit with the Chu (tm) pelvic thrusting (and really its the complete torso thrusting), not the arms! This is so you f**k the guy up!

Just when I met the YKS guy and he told me his guy could punch 10 times in a second - how hard was that, I asked? They can score and tap, but hardly knock anyone out.

150 lbs is weak. Boxing's right cross can strike out at 600 - 800 lbs - I used to do that at the arcade with those punching machines. WCK should be right about there, too. 150 lbs is just tapping with the arms, not enough body.

[anerlich]

Chain punching as a application is due to no power in their strikes in the 1st place, trust me I know all about this as I was a follower for 18yrs. WCheung could throw 8-9 punches a second, they calulated that at Boston Univ back in the 90's, but what happens when each punch has connected, the rebound force would slow everything down, especially if you have no body structure to absorb that force more efficiently. That was never talked about, taught, or even heard of in that line. I see WT guys doing the samething, lots of punching, but little control and power. I would think that as a striker one would 1st develop a good punch, good footwork and good finishing skills. Correct?

No arguments here.

FWIW, my instructor Rick Spain went through a period trying to match or beat this "record" (I think it was actually 8.3 per second, FWIW). He got up around there, and apparently the old man told him, "ah, but did they measure the power of the punches?", which presumably they did at Boston U, though one wonders how if you are just punching in air - as James says, actually hitting something with penetration would have to slow things down.

He said he found the experience a bit of a waste of time, as the constant concentration on speed meant he neglected other aspects of his training, and that overall nothing really improved.

Some WT guys claimed they could hit faster than this (this being the times of the TWC/WT feud), and the Speed Man, John La Tourette, came out claiming he could hit up to 12 times a second, but it was all stuff like fist/wrist/elbow/elbow/shoulder/... and none of it really looked like it would hurt anyone.

[sihing]

I never saw the results of the actual study, but heard from William Cheung or maybe it was from Joe Sayah(its been a few years), that they calculated it at around 150lbs of force, per punch. I always thought that implied that he actually hit something, to calculate this. Do you know of anywhere I can find the links to the actual study?

I remember reading about it some of WCheung's books, then I found the Inside Kung Fu addition that profiled the study with pictures and explainations. Yeah, from what I understand the 150-160lbs of force per punch was what was stated in the article, and back then I thought that was powerful. Now I don't as Robert mentioned the average cross is up around 800-900 lbs. Isn't it more efficient to throw 1 instead of 3?

James

[sihing]

The JKA did a similar study which you can find in the book Dynamic Karate, that showed a dramatic decrease in impact force after the 3rd punch in a 7 punch combo ( I think it was 7...it was a multi punch one though), the force went up to the 2nd strike,a slight drop to the 3rd and a dramacti one to the 4th, etc, etc

You know what, since training in WSL method, my thinking is along these lines, that max you could throw 3 shots in a stepping action. Sorta like a fajing thing, I saw Erle Montague talking about this on one of his tapes once. Here's me doing a 3 punch combo VT style on the bag, taped it last October, just concentrating on using my elbow/hip/ground connection, not trying to over power it, and accuracy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZVyNtkE_gg .

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good post and clip, James.

I've been a big believer in this kind of drill - and the philosophy behind it - for many, many years. The 6-7-8 punch thing is a big waste of time, as Rick Spain expressed it to Andrew Nerlich.

And as I said earlier, after about the 3rd punch or so, something is bound to happen to change the dynamics of the fight in a radical way anyway.

[anerlich]

Not being an expert on the subject, I would imagine that after 3 or more punches as fast as possible with either arm your ATP reserves would start depleting, contractions less powerful, etc.

The fast chain punch is basically a party trick.

It probably should be pointed out that William Cheung can actually hit hard, as well as fast, though apparently not both at once.

Boxing's right cross can strike out at 600 - 800 lbs - I used to do that at the arcade with those punching machines.

Yeah, and Ivan Drago went up to 2000 in Rocky IV!

[sihing]

Not being an expert on the subject, I would imagine that after 3 or more punches as fast as possible with either arm your ATP reserves would start depleting, contractions less powerful, etc.

The fast chain punch is basically a party trick.

It probably should be pointed out that William Cheung can actually hit hard, as well as fast, though apparently not both at once.



Yeah, and Ivan Drago went up to 2000 in Rocky IV!

There's no doubt WCheung can hit hard, but it is in a singular sense, not all 8 or 9 equally as was advertised. I can see using the chain punch when working some speed drills, or as JKD advocates using it as a relentless centerline attack to setup elbows/headbutts, but otherwise it's patty cake time.

I was going to mention sir Ivan, but since this forum is based on the real I wasn't sure it was appropiate

James

[Pacman]

It works, it's just low %. It all depends who your trying to apply it against. And it's a matter of timing. You can have 3 basic timings, hit the guy just before he releases (while he's loading up, setting up), hit him while he's releasing (simul blk/strk), hit him just after he releases (follow him back), but your own personal timing and perception must be finely tuned to pull it off from a non contact position. In the end timing is the essence, without it nothing you have learned will work effectively.

James

i think there is an easy way to consider whether block/strikes are good or not.

when someone throws a punch and you are not able to hit him as he winds up (or if he does not wind up as in WC), you have two options

1. block or evade
2. (block or evade) + strike

if you go with option #2, even if you do not hit him you are least disrupting his attack.

after all you have 4 limbs, might as well use them all

[Pacman]

Isn't it more efficient to throw 1 instead of 3?

James

depends on the fighting style. and you are assuming that the one will connect.

not that i think punches should be weak, but you could also argue what good is a powerful super punch if you can't connect?

this is the style that some boxers and karate stylists use. the super punch. in boxing, typically most guys are just itching to use the hook from the rear hand. karate stylists want to do the powerful super punch too.

WC is about flowing and continuous hits. not that we want to punch weakly, but the style of fighting is about continuation.

its up to you which style you want to go with.

i know everyone will love when i say this, but it all goes back to hard styles (starting and stopping, rigid) vs soft styles (smooth, continuous)

[AdrianK]

LOL! Those 8 - 10 taps per second are not like real punches! You hit with the Chu (tm) pelvic thrusting (and really its the complete torso thrusting), not the arms! This is so you f**k the guy up!

Just when I met the YKS guy and he told me his guy could punch 10 times in a second - how hard was that, I asked? They can score and tap, but hardly knock anyone out.

150 lbs is weak. Boxing's right cross can strike out at 600 - 800 lbs - I used to do that at the arcade with those punching machines. WCK should be right about there, too. 150 lbs is just tapping with the arms, not enough body.

Oh absolutely. 150lbs is pathetic for a trained fighter. I once read Muhammad Ali's jab alone, was clocked at around 1500lbs.

[sanjuro_ronin]

From the studies I have read and be involved in myself, a trained fighter can typiclaly hit with about 800-900 lbs of force on a "momentum" based strike, which are the typical cross and hooks and such.
Some can hit quite harder, over the 1K mark but that becomes redundantr because typically anyone can get KO'd with anything over the 600 mark which is around the 10g mark in accelration on the head.
Jabs tend to be in the 400lbs mark by the way, no chance Ali had a 1500lb jab.
Now, many studies have been done on impact as it relates to car crash and such and even on fight science they have measured force impact of MA and those value I stated are pretty much the average for a typical fighter in the 180-200lbs mark, but size matters of course, though the studies show that in terms of force impact it doesn't matter that much, many lighter fighters hitting harder than the bigger fighters, BUT ON AVERAGE, the bigger fighters hit harder, which is obvious.
The last study I was invloved in a couple of years ago involved hitting a MOVING target, a padded sparring partner that had force sensors wired into the padding.
Mesurments were taken of strikes on a static target and then while sparring for 3 min.
Typically there was a drop of 20% from the force registered on a static strike as opposed to striking a moving object.

[k gledhill]

How many times you hit someone is really about the reality , bare fists/hands have no pillows, er ....gloves

if the force is received in a direct line in and out the head/jaw, they usually go in the direction of that force, they will travel too...5-6 ft or slam into a wall if its right behind them, double impact ... punch>!head!<wall

If you hit a guy who is coming at you and time the strike , say a palm to the head of a guy coming low trying to grab a wrist before hitting you, you get maximum 'timing' impact.
Or a group of guys in bar brawl and you strike to your left to hit the closest guy advancing on you in the head/jaw , as you are both 'facing & turning' AND hitting together, this gives maximum force potential of a head on collision , multiplying the forces at contact....care should be maintained so you dont really hurt the guy beyond reasonable force required. You can do some serious damage.

I practice this head on striking by swinging a heavy bag so its coming at me , not just hanging still and I move around or go in at a straight line . If you start the exercise by pushing the bag away from you , move back a step or two and wait for the swing to come back at you while being offside slightly and strike low on the bag as it nears the apex of the return swing ..you get the idea ... a lot of times this is the way because of guys coming in 2's or more, so you have to be waiting for 'first come, first served' tactics. The bag will knock you back at first until you get the timing and stance etc...you will feel the force generated.

Counter-striking entry also has this force amplification....if the timing is done right. In seung ma toi ma drills we strike the entry using the forearms as the alignment along the line to cover the attempted strike in AS we strike the target [partner] . So we get a head on ability, while adopting a balanced , well structured, hips etc...stance in time with the entry...a lot of things that sounds simple but takes many reps to get it all timed together with FORCE sufficient to stop or even hurt the partner. Doing this drill randomly from either side angling and also stepping in attacking gives both the opportunity to train 'head-on striking' only with offside /blindside/flanking ...done with the added dimension of a pre-fight gap you instinctively move and position or strike to the optimal angles etc..first come etc... or sparring trying to shift quickly back and forth in out etc along a perimeter line ..no lead legs back and forth yet until you gain side entry of, or turn the attacker...then you can adopt a lead leg [either one doesnt matter] and 'steam in'...

If the focus of your chi-sao is on sticking to arms and controlling them,chasing them, using wristing [ bad word] to do downward deflections then strike in 1-2 beats , you wont develop this ability..I know first hand ; ) chi-sao is close enough to hit with a fist while using the elbows in to achieve an arm angle sufficient to allow a line that can defelct the arm of the partner at the same time , without trying to stick or feel, but strike and simultaneously cover counter entry
along your c line...

.....If you trap a guy and charge hitting one handed, say like your arguing with a guy and after he swings at your jaw and [misses!] ...and as a result overturns his flank to you , you use a pak sao & elbow trap. Theres little force, you can eye gouge with your thumb a classic wsl ..You can strike but theres little force and guys tend to instinctively cover up and drop their heads. Continuing the trapping charge to a nearby wall or parked car, then your striking gets more force when they cant evade as easily.
They will still cover up if they can so you use the chum kil lateral steps to maintain your attack sideways, you can throw kidney punches to guys trying to turn their bodies so their faces/heads arent catching strikes...or short upper cuts...under the raised arms.

a good punch is usually all you need, but a good punch is the whole body, so it has to be connected , vt does this connection well without offering flanking counters due to the 'facing' nature or squared shoulders , while being at angles or trying to turn the attacker.

[sihing]

depends on the fighting style. and you are assuming that the one will connect.

not that i think punches should be weak, but you could also argue what good is a powerful super punch if you can't connect?

this is the style that some boxers and karate stylists use. the super punch. in boxing, typically most guys are just itching to use the hook from the rear hand. karate stylists want to do the powerful super punch too.

WC is about flowing and continuous hits. not that we want to punch weakly, but the style of fighting is about continuation.

its up to you which style you want to go with.

i know everyone will love when i say this, but it all goes back to hard styles (starting and stopping, rigid) vs soft styles (smooth, continuous)

I try not to assume anything really when in combat, as assumption requires thinking as a precursor, why would you be "thinking" during a fight? What I like about WC striking is that if the first one misses, the 2nd is right behind it, since there is no torque loading or swinging of the shoulders, the other hand is right there to adjust. The power is coming from the lower body, legs, connected to the hips, so it is like having a small hand gun with the power of a rifle or shotgun, so we can hit hard and adapt and not commit like one does in a "super punch". Also, one should be using listening skills if contact is made, which is part of the purpose of chi sau and sensitivity drills, it enhances adaptablility which is needed more when using a contact method such as WC. So in response, it is still more efficient to be able to KO with 1 strike than 2, the key thing is commitment and adaptability.

In WC I find the non telegraphic nature of it, and the idea that we don't strike until the position is secured or closer in, makes it effective and harder to stop. At the least, the aggressive nature, forward moving aspect of WC makes the other guy more defensive which is always a plus in a fight.

When ever I've sparred other guys, or seen my training partners/students spar we always get them moving backwards, as most cannot handle our ability to function closer in, while maintain control and ability. Now the problem with this in a competition is that a strategy can be developed against it, so it won't always work in that environment, but on the street, where no foreknowledge of the fight is present, it can work more effectively.

James

[chusauli]

No arguments here.

FWIW, my instructor Rick Spain went through a period trying to match or beat this "record" (I think it was actually 8.3 per second, FWIW). He got up around there, and apparently the old man told him, "ah, but did they measure the power of the punches?", which presumably they did at Boston U, though one wonders how if you are just punching in air - as James says, actually hitting something with penetration would have to slow things down.

He said he found the experience a bit of a waste of time, as the constant concentration on speed meant he neglected other aspects of his training, and that overall nothing really improved.

Some WT guys claimed they could hit faster than this (this being the times of the TWC/WT feud), and the Speed Man, John La Tourette, came out claiming he could hit up to 12 times a second, but it was all stuff like fist/wrist/elbow/elbow/shoulder/... and none of it really looked like it would hurt anyone.

As I recall, Rick Spain did 10 punches per second and did beat that record.