ideas on integration?

[grasshopper 2.0]

This goes out to those that believe cross training, or integrating "un-wing chun" moves is a good thing:

How do you integrate such punching, kicking, etc into ur wing chun class? After so many years, many of these students move the wing chun way (eg. Chain punching only, weight on back leg - this is in my class btw), so what have u guys done to introduce hooking punches, jabs, etc into the curriculum while keeping to wing chun theme in class?

Any problems u guys have run into? Any tips or advice?

Thanks!

[Lee Chiang Po]

Wing chun is complete. You can not intergrate anything without violating it's basic principals. Hook punches, high kicks, and anything non-wing chun can not be intergrated. If you mix black and white you get gray. Good and bad will create mediocre. So do not attempt to intergrate less efficient techniques into a near perfect system or you will make it a less efficient system.

[Phil Redmond]

Wing chun is complete. You can not intergrate anything without violating it's basic principals. Hook punches, high kicks, and anything non-wing chun can not be intergrated. If you mix black and white you get gray. Good and bad will create mediocre. So do not attempt to intergrate less efficient techniques into a near perfect system or you will make it a less efficient system.

There are hook punches in some lineages of WC. This mentality is why most WC people can't fight against other disciplines.

[Liddel]

There are hook punches in some lineages of WC. This mentality is why most WC people can't fight against other disciplines.

Yes that is a narrow view. If one conceeds Wing Chun is a perfect system the fact is, humans are not...and we are the device through which VT manifests itself so... its specific to the individual

Even if your VT is perfect in your own mind you can still train in a ground based system unless your VT has ground techs that are unique and different to other systems etc etc

Thought that a strange post based on LCP posts elsewhere....

If you have difficulty connecting with a particular kick, drop it from your arsonal. If it doesn't work for you, it is a total waste of time. Train a kick that works well.

What if that kicks in another system ?

My particular life experience means i beleive Perfection is a state of mind not a state of reality.

DREW

[Ultimatewingchun]

There's no such thing as a perfect system. The best martial artists/fighters in the world today are crosstrainers in some way or another.

[-木叶-]

To me, it is necessary to have knowledge of other systems.
For example, as WC fighters, we fight standing mostly, and although
we do and can stop people from bringing us to the ground, the scenario
is "what if it really happens".

Personally, if it really happens that i am forced on to the ground into some sort of
BJJ submission technique, it would really help alot if i have the knowledge
to know how to guard the submission and to break it.

This can only happen if i train awhile in BJJ.

If this is cross-training then yes, cross training do help.

However if your meaning of integration is "adding new moves" into the existing
forms then i do not agree. During Wing Chun training, we train Wing Chun and
nothing else. If we need knowledge on other systems for some reason, we
train and learn with people from that field, in another session. But, importantly, still maintain Wing Chun as the main art.

This is my definition of "cross-training".

In addition, during the process of learning, i believe slow-learners like me
may suddenly realize actually there is a way to apply Wing Chun principles
in the situation and then the need for that certain type of cross-training
is not necessary anymore.

[Museumtech]

Perhaps a little simplistic. Even in 1979 (before it was called TWC) we were doing more than just chain punching. Not a criticism just an observation.

[Pacman]

There are hook punches in some lineages of WC. This mentality is why most WC people can't fight against other disciplines.

i think that the lack of skill (due to inadequate or poor fight training) is why they cant fight against other disciplines, not because they lack non WC moves

you do not need anything non WC to counter against a hook or a high kick to the head. you do, however, need fighting experience

[TenTigers]

in an attempt to actually address the topic...
A boxer's stance is wider and shallower than a WCK stance, as it needs to be to throw its techniques. But, you are only as rigid, or as flexible as your mind allows you to be.
Your WCK stance-any stance is two points on a straight line. If you change your orientation, you change the stance-without changing the stance.

ex: Say you are standing with your feet at 12:00 and 6:00. If you turn your head to 1:00, it is the equivilent of changing your feet to 11:00 and 5:00.
Or, if you were on a rotating platform, as it turns, and you maintian your head facing 12:00, the position of your feet change respectively.

Shifting stances contains all the angles and permutations within, when shifting from A to B, just as going from Bow stance to Bow stance, you pass through the horse and everything in between.

Taking your flexibility of mind a step further, your footwork needs to be active.
Working your footwork until rapid changes in angle and distance is achieved naturally and smoothly and effortlessly takes an investment in time.
This does not mean bouncing, around, or a boxer's shuffle, but finding your place, while maintaining WCK principles and concepts while being flexible.

"I don't break the law, but I have bent it considerably, at times!"

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wing chun is complete. You can not intergrate anything without violating it's basic principals. Hook punches, high kicks, and anything non-wing chun can not be intergrated. If you mix black and white you get gray. Good and bad will create mediocre. So do not attempt to intergrate less efficient techniques into a near perfect system or you will make it a less efficient system.

Well, that is very contridictory.
You say WC is complete, but say it has no hook punches or high kicks and mention "anything non-wing chun", that doesn't make any sense.
IF wc was compete it would have everything and nothing would be non-wing chung.
So which is it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You learn to counter a ( or use) technique/principle by being exposed to it, if you are never exposed to it (done correctly) you can't use it or counter it, case in point those early fighters of the vale tudo / UFC that thought they could counter grappling by the silliness that tried because they had "trained" in their schools.
How did they work out for them?
Not very well.

[Pacman]

Well, that is very contridictory.
You say WC is complete, but say it has no hook punches or high kicks and mention "anything non-wing chun", that doesn't make any sense.
IF wc was compete it would have everything and nothing would be non-wing chung.
So which is it?

i think he means that WC doesnt have certain things but doesnt need them so it is complete

[sanjuro_ronin]

i think he means that WC doesnt have certain things but doesnt need them so it is complete

How does one know what is NOT needed?
Seriously, you say you don't need hooks ( for example), how do you know this?
Hooks are one of the most effective hand strikes in ANY MA, they generate a tremendous amount impact force, their circular nature allows them to go around a guard, they cause more KO's in MA than probably any other hand strike ( exception may be the overhand right), they strike off a person's natural blind spot and they naturally hit the outside anatomical week points of the body and head with out much adjustment needed.
How can one say that their system is complete and doesn't need hooks (for example) ?

[Phil Redmond]

Wing chun is complete. You can not intergrate anything without violating it's basic principals. Hook punches, high kicks, and anything non-wing chun can not be intergrated. If you mix black and white you get gray. Good and bad will create mediocre. So do not attempt to intergrate less efficient techniques into a near perfect system or you will make it a less efficient system.

According to some historians WC is a mixture of the best aspects of different "systems". Even if you don't subscribe to that idea we all know that one of our weapons was added to our system later on.

[TenTigers]

the point is not whether or not you should be doing this. You guys will argue this point till you're blue in the face. The point was, for those of you who DO, how have you accomplished this?

save your bickering for another thread.
(boy, I should be a moderator!)