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Why is that amazing? They are just variations on crossfacing and front headlocks from the top. Crossfaces from the side are much nastier.Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
So Dale, you're saying that what goes on in this vid, and especially from 2:30-4:05...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq0OrVgEFs4
...you're saying that you were doing exactly this from back in your high school days. Hummm...
That's amazing, Dale.
Banned
You're being just a little too vague, Dale. Did you actually do this move back in high school
exactly as you see it being done between 2:30-4:05 on the vid?
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Of course not. You can only do it the way he is demonstrating it when you have a person who is letting you put in on like that and just lets his body and arms hang there. When you actually do it for real, your opponent hand fights you and changes his body angle.
That's the problem with most carney finishes. They need either a compliant opponent or a huge discrepancy in size and strength. And the problem with not competing... it's too easy to be fooled by the "demonstrations" of the hucksters.
Last edited by Knifefighter; 07-27-2009 at 11:45 AM.
Banned
Okay, I get it. You don't know (or haven't bothered to try and learn) the setups that can be used to get this. So for you it therefore just becomes a carny move.
I get it.
..................................
Back to Crosstraining & Wing Chun.
Banned
No, you don't. To "get it" -- to have an intelligent basis for talking about grappling -- you need to go and do hundreds of hours training/sparring with competent grapplers.
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Sorry, normally i agree with most of your posts, opinions etc. however, all martial arts that gain popularity (especially in the US) fall victim to this eventually.
https://www.graciecombat.com/flare/next
And anyone who teaches "kickboxing" nowadays is calling it MT. It will get watered down a bit and there will be plenty of "bad mma sparring" vids on Youtube to join in the ranks of "bad WC sparring" vids.
Then the forums will get really fun!!
Banned
Keep your head in the sand.
You are arguing with a BJJ BB who has competed in both sub grappling and MMA about grappling! You don't know 1% of what he does. This is like a guy who has never played organized ball, plays a bit of pick-up with his buddies, and thinks he can tell an NBA player about basketball. Delusionsal.
Banned
Hey, Niehoff...I'll take Billy Robinson's word for it over Dale Franks' any time, any place.
And as usual, you don't know what you're talking about.
AGAIN, THE FIGURE FOUR FRONT FACELOCK IS TAUGHT BY A NUMBER OF CATCH WRESTLERS WHO TRAINED IN WIGAN, ENGLAND...INCLUDING BILLY ROBINSON....THE SAME BILLY ROBINSON WHO WAS ASKED BY KAZUSHI SAKURABA AND JOSH BARNETT TO TEACH THEM CATCH SUBMISSIONS.
Enough said.
Banned
Why take ANYONE's word for it? Let's just see the evidence. The problem is, Victor, that you can't provide any and you can't even discuss the issue intelligently since you have no good, significant experience grappling. Yet, in your ignorance you want to argue with someone who has tons of genuine experience. Like I said, it is like a scrub basketball player trying to argue basketball with an NBA player.
I know that you haven't a clue about grappling since you haven't put in the requisite work to develop any significant skill of knowledge.And as usual, you don't know what you're talking about.
And the same figure four face lock that we never see Sakuraba or Barnett (when he is able to figure out how to cycle his roids) use! I guess Billyjust forgot to teach them that one?AGAIN, THE FIGURE FOUR FRONT FACELOCK IS TAUGHT BY A NUMBER OF CATCH WRESTLERS WHO TRAINED IN WIGAN, ENGLAND...INCLUDING BILLY ROBINSON....THE SAME BILLY ROBINSON WHO WAS ASKED BY KAZUSHI SAKURABA AND JOSH BARNETT TO TEACH THEM CATCH SUBMISSIONS.
Enough said.
Banned
The problem is that you, Terence Niehoff, refuse to know when to just shut up and learn something that you didn't know before. Because your arrogance is only equalled by your ignorance, ie.- you basically know nothing about catch as catch can wrestling....
but you want to try and convince people that you know all there really is to know.
So you don't know hardly anything about catch. And your knowledge of wing chun is also extremely limited (clearly and undoubtedly the reason why you never post a single vid of yourself)...and your skill level in ANY other form of martial arts that you constantly go on-and-on about (boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, kickboxing, etc.) is also obviously very low level...and again, this is the reason why - under any and all circumstances - you have always refused (and will always refuse)...
to post a vid of yourself doing ANYTHING.
What you are good at, however, is the ability to try and turn virtually every thread you participate in...into a referendum on whether or not the other people on the thread can live up to the standards that you want to set for them - and that you pretend to be an expert in knowing about...
which are the very same standards that you, yourself, can never fulfill.
In short, Terence, you are a joke, which is why virtually the entire wing chun forum had to laugh at the idea that the first character that appears in this vid - is really you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5SaNBjLhg&NR=1
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Victor-
If you are privy to this great grappling system of these workable techniques, why don't you just go enter some grappling tourneys? The results there would speak a thousand times louder than anything you could ever say here... of course, that's probably what you are worried about.
One really has to wonder about the credentials of a WC instructor who also bills himself as a grappling instructor, but seems to be 100% video trained and has never entered a single grappling competition.
Last edited by Knifefighter; 07-27-2009 at 02:50 PM.
Registered User
Standing gromits, fig 4 facelocks, and guillotines IME are not real high percentage as finishing moves. There is simply too much space available from the feet and it's too hard to shut it completely down against skilled opponents who are scrambling. Now Kenny Florian teaches a standing guillotine that actually looks very similar to this video - he folds the other arm over the shoulder. I haven't found that to be any higher percentage finishing either, not that you can't ever get it. If you can manage to get a hand in to the neck without it being grabbed, and a chest on top of the back, an even nastier sub is that 10 finger guillotine right under the adam's apple - that gets the gag/choke reflex as well as a windpipe choke.
A real common defense to this is to hand fight - grab the wrist as it comes under, change angles to go into the arm straight to make space, then back up popping your head out. That leaves you in perfect position to arm drag and take the back.
Higher percentage options again IME from there are sprawling to take the opponent to the knees and remove space, shooting the neck hand deep to the far tricep to set up guillotines or a peruvian necktie, or a gator roll to a side choke. Scrambling to the side for a wrestler's side ride or taking the back is also higher percentage.
But again, that's just my .02 from live rolling. YMMV.
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Butting in here - apologies ahead of time. You know from what I've experimented with in the catch hooks, once you get them on they are very effective. It's the setting them up that is harder against better grapplers - the entry into them. I've worked the wristlocks most recently, and in certain circumstances they finish things quickly. If you don't get the entry exact though they are easier to power out of than their BJJ counterparts on entry. In that my opinion currently is they are similar in my experience to some of the aikido locks - that are effective if you have exact entry/setup. I'm still working them to get better at timing the entry.
Banned
Yes , it is all in the setups, I agree. And when I included the standing figure four facelock and the standing double wristlock as part of the top 30 - I was thinking (as I mentioned at the time)...primarily streetfight situation (although they are valuable for sparring/rolling, tournaments, as well)...
because once strikes are included, then quite often the setup will be a punching combination, a knee to the body or face, an elbow strike, a followup to your nicely-done sprawl if he attempts to take you down, etc.
That doesn't mean that you can't get these holds firmly secured coming off a wrestling/grappling setup, ie.-a snap down, from the defensive sprawl just mentioned, arm wrestling with head control, your own offensive front headlock with overhook arm capture sprawl takedown, (instead of following up with a go-behind), etc...
but when we also include strikes, the percentages go up.
Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 07-27-2009 at 07:42 PM.
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