The Vertical Punch.

[Knifefighter]

Non contact is were everything begins..

Actually, real fighting starts in contact range more often than not. That's the single part of chi sao that actually gets things right.

The funny thing is if you guys were really getting into things on the street like so many of you say you are, you would have figured out a much more realistic approach to your chi sao by now.

[Hendrik]

Actually, real fighting starts in contact range more often than not. That's the single part of chi sao that actually gets things right.

The funny thing is if you guys were really getting into things on the street like so many of you say you are, you would have figured out a much more realistic approach to your chi sao by now.

you know you bring up a few very good points?


For me,
It doesnt make any sense at all for the creator of WCK to design Chi Sao in the correct range and doesnt have a platform to support.

As the old description of WCK is close range art, if the platform doesnt support it, how can this type of art exist in the old time?


So, similar to lots of Chinese art, there is one conclusion, the proper platform has been missing due to the evolution. what we see today is no longer what it is.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by monji112000 View Post
Non contact is were everything begins..

the first intention, the eyes contact.... ect is already contact long before physical contact. And often one has lost even at the contact before the physical one.

[t_niehoff]

Yes I watched the video. first off the people aren't really resisting. I'm not interested in giving my opinion or saying anything negative about the video... I don't know the sifu. I do see some techniques in the video but again against a resisting opponent it doesn't look like that. Secondly I don't think its smart to include the person stopping in the middle of attacking as a method for training. They are clearly doing one crappy technique and stopping.. again I'm not interested in discussing chi sao in detail its a complicated topic..

Try to understand this -- chi sao is NOT fighting, it is an exercise (a mock fight) to learn and practice WCK's method of attached fighting. So, it is not going to look like a fight, it will not involve genuine resistance, etc.

Chi sao isn't a complicated topic.

It makes perfect sense, since that in a integral part of fighting. Non contact is were everything begins.Again in a real fight constant "attaching" doesn't always exist and not in the context of the game of Chi sao. Just watch the clip even then its constantly losing the platform of chi sao. so in a sense you are engaging and disengaging allot.

As Dale already pointed out, many fights do being very close or with contact. And while I agre that many fights do not, WCK provides the tools to gain contact/attachment. It is like saying WCK is ground-n-pound. Do you need topractice that on the ground? Yes. Is the ground the entire fight? No. But the idea is to get to the ground sso that you can pound as quickly as possible. With regard to WCK being about controlling while striking, yes, you may need to first establish an attachment. That's part of WCK. But it's not a part of chi sao since that exercise is only concered with what to do once you get there.

Yes, in that video they stop, start, disengage but this is just "phrases" of the overall approach -- once you break the opponent's structure and are controlling and striking them, in chi sao you stop and begin again. You don't, as you would in a fight, finish the guy.

I said the "platform" is Wing Chun not the techniques. It 100% is and has been used for many generations. Thats how people learn to fight. Maybe today we can use boxing gloves and headgear to help reduce injury, but this form of training has always existed. Its the core foundation of all martial arts. JMO

If you are saying that sparring is a platform of MA training, then I will agree. However, it is not the core of all martial arts but only the functional martial arts and is a recent development.

I don't believe in anything called Wing Chun sparring. We clearly have completely different ideas on what works, what is Wing chun, and what world we live in. As I said lets agree to disagree. I think if you start practising in the method/platform I showed in those clips your fighting ability will improve dramatically. You will also start to figure out what things tend to work more often and what doesn't when someone is REALLY resisting.

"Wing Chun sparring" is sparring with your WCK method and skills. If you are a WCK fighter, you are going to use the WCK method and tools, right? WCK isn't just doing whatever you want and calling it WCK. You are only doing WCK when you are using its tools. Just like you aren't boxing if you aren't using boxing's tools or BJJ if you aren't using BJJ tools. When do we use WCK tools? When we are in certain (but not all) attached situations.

[Knifefighter]

So, similar to lots of Chinese art, there is one conclusion, the proper platform has been missing due to the evolution. what we see today is no longer what it is.

Bingo!! Take away the constant real-world testing and, within a few years, you end up with a completely different platform that bears little resemblance to the original.

[monji112000]

Actually, real fighting starts in contact range more often than not. That's the single part of chi sao that actually gets things right.

The funny thing is if you guys were really getting into things on the street like so many of you say you are, you would have figured out a much more realistic approach to your chi sao by now.

You show me were I ever said I was "getting into things on the street". I avoid fights on the street. I have been mugged, and I gave him my wallet (it was a throw away wallet), and I ran away. I'm proud of doing the smart thing. I personally have been in allot of fights in my younger years. All of wich starting without any "clinching", attaching. They all started two ways, sucker punches or my trying to back up and avoid a fight.. they swing. So Did they start in "Striking range" yes, did they start bridged NO. So again I feel strongly you must be able to handle people more often then not striking you not constantly bridging. I train BOTH. I'm not the best nor do I claim to be. What you read is what you get.

Try to understand this -- chi sao is NOT fighting, it is an exercise (a mock fight) to learn and practice WCK's method of attached fighting. So, it is not going to look like a fight, it will not involve genuine resistance, etc.

Chi sao isn't a complicated topic.



As Dale already pointed out, many fights do being very close or with contact. And while I agre that many fights do not, WCK provides the tools to gain contact/attachment. It is like saying WCK is ground-n-pound. Do you need topractice that on the ground? Yes. Is the ground the entire fight? No. But the idea is to get to the ground sso that you can pound as quickly as possible. With regard to WCK being about controlling while striking, yes, you may need to first establish an attachment. That's part of WCK. But it's not a part of chi sao since that exercise is only concered with what to do once you get there.

Yes, in that video they stop, start, disengage but this is just "phrases" of the overall approach -- once you break the opponent's structure and are controlling and striking them, in chi sao you stop and begin again. You don't, as you would in a fight, finish the guy.



If you are saying that sparring is a platform of MA training, then I will agree. However, it is not the core of all martial arts but only the functional martial arts and is a recent development.

I'll stand by what I said. I don't believe in Wing Chun Sparring. Sparring as a general Platform is a core "platform" used in all martial arts at one time or another. Fighting doesn't resemble a CHi sao match. Again chi sao is complicated topic. I'm sure if we surveyed everyone who posts in the WC area you would find allot of different ideas of what exactly it is. If your chi sao doesn't involve real resistance that fine, I pass no judgement. I don't find that useful at all. at some point you have to have real resistance.

[Wayfaring]

The tactic is to move from the tie up/clinch to setting up a release, moving into boxing style inside punches and then back to tie up/clinch or moving outside. This works well, as many opponents get too focused on in maintaining the clinch.

This is pretty common in MT drills I'm familiar with. Punch your way in, reach behind head, pull into a knee, establish the MT neck ties, hang weight on neck, sling opponent to one side, when their foot hits the ground, knee strike, then punch your way out with opposite hand to striking knee.

[Wayfaring]

Chum kiu (sinking bridge) refers to using the bridge to destroy (sink) an opponent's body structure (thereby enabling us to control him) not to sink your opponent's arm.

Another kuit: The novice fights from across the stream, the master fights from the bridge.

The kuit's I've been exposed to are oral HFY sayings. They are probably different than some of the mainstream WC written kuits - I've only had slight exposure to those through Moy Yat lines.

I've never heard anything like erect a bridge if one doesn't exist. That kind of sounds like let your opponent back in the fight when you have the opportunity to finish him.

[Hendrik]

Bingo!! Take away the constant real-world testing and, within a few years, you end up with a completely different platform that bears little resemblance to the original.

Totally screw up and living in a fantasy land too.

[Wayfaring]

1- It's hard to pull guard when you end up underneath a good sprawl.
2- You don't have to follow the opponent into his guard.

This is all true - also it depends on how committed the shoot was. If people are doing uncommitted shots, you don't need to sprawl, but can shut it down with a low hand and facing. That's where you don't have to follow them into the guard but can maintain posture and pass.

If it's more committed and you need to drop your weight / hip, then it pretty much leads directly into a front headlock position with a sprawl or to a wrestlers side ride.

I guess if people are throwing really wide open right hands with no setup that might expose them to shots of this nature more, but I've not had a real problem with people turning a shoot into pulling guard. If they're committed enough to make the shoot a threat for a single/double leg takedown, they don't have space to pull guard when you sprawl and put a good hip into it. If they are not committed enough, no need to sprawl.

[Wayfaring]

The funny thing is if you guys were really getting into things on the street like so many of you say you are, you would have figured out a much more realistic approach to your chi sao by now.

No way. I can't afford to get into it on the street, with lawsuits and criminal charges. I can only afford that kind of activity in a gym or training facility where people have signed waivers.

[Liddel]

WCK is a "clinching system" -- using a WCK-style clinch. Why do you think chi sao is the main WCK exercise? What are you doing in chi sao? Practicing attached fighting but in an unrealistic (noncombative) environment.

This implies you still have the training wheels on with regard to VT, theres no need to force attatchment or look to clinch, VT isn a clinch system IME.

Trainging wheels on a bike force one to go straight ahead insted of tipping to one side. Chi sau makes us 'stick' only as training wheels during discovery and application.
Once the training wheels are off and your in Gor Sau all the way through sparring to fighting, you are chasing the body and sticking is a bi-product of the opponent trying to nuetralise that. Its a give in many people get stuck on the sticking rather than striking and combining phase.

This is one way i force my game on my sparring partners.

Any skilled VT pratitioner who actually mixes it up knows - DONT chase the hands, CHASE the body, the rest will follow.

This is quite a shift from the verticle punch topic , but i guess we need something to preech about LOL

DREW

[LSWCTN1]

You are missing the point. WCK's main exercise, chi sao 9and lop sao, etc.), is to teach you HOW TO PLAY THE GAME. That game is attached fighting. The tools of chi sao, the tools of WCK, are attached fighting tools. I

this was why i raised the question oin my why chi sau? thread

not everyone sees chi sau in this way - we certainly dont

chi sau in itself is to open to interpretation

also the kuen kuit...

they are very good, but they are one persons/lineages interpretation of how wck should be performed - one practitioner originally came up with an idea, then passed that particular idea/ideal onto their student(s)

you can say chi sau is attached and pass that message on to your students. i can say its not and pass tat onto my students - within time our 'kuen kuits' will be different between our lineages. it is just an interpretation

[Museumtech]

the first intention, the eyes contact.... ect is already contact long before physical contact. And often one has lost even at the contact before the physical one.

Fortunately I have never had to defend my self in this sort of situation. And if I die never fully testing WC in a real life and death situation I will die happy. But from what I read, from what I hear, from what I see on the news. Those cowardly *******s will have kicked the sh1t out of you with out bothering to make eye contact. If eye contact is made, I have the option of walking away.

Peter Lillywhite

[Ultimatewingchun]

This implies you still have the training wheels on with regard to VT, theres no need to force attatchment or look to clinch, VT isn a clinch system IME.

Trainging wheels on a bike force one to go straight ahead insted of tipping to one side. Chi sau makes us 'stick' only as training wheels during discovery and application.
Once the training wheels are off and your in Gor Sau all the way through sparring to fighting, you are chasing the body and sticking is a bi-product of the opponent trying to nuetralise that. Its a give in many people get stuck on the sticking rather than striking and combining phase.

This is one way i force my game on my sparring partners.

Any skilled VT pratitioner who actually mixes it up knows - DONT chase the hands, CHASE the body, the rest will follow.

This is quite a shift from the verticle punch topic , but i guess we need something to preech about LOL

DREW

***GOD, I love this post!