Why chi sau?

[Wayfaring]

I'm sorry but I don't carry a video camera to class and training sessions. Nor am I doing to do so to convince guys like you that I go to BJJ and MMA class.

The interest I would have in this type of video is not to prove whether or not you train with BJJ BB's or MMA fighters - I believe you do. I believe you have been training BJJ with Vaghi for a number of years now, and sparring at MMA schools.

The interest I would have would be in seeing your application of your short range dirty boxing approach to WCK skills in a fighting environment. More like what you guys do at the YMCA - under your control, not in someone else's school where video would be an etiquette issue. I just would be interested in the application from a purist perspective. Regardless of whether it's UFC level, small show level, or TMA good effort level.

[HumbleWCGuy]

please no bickering on this thread!

lets hear other people's opinions on it and what it is to them

I wonder why it is called 'chi sao' (sticky hands) and not 'kui sau' (bridge hands). as i understand it our chis sau is not a sticky hand exercise whatsoever. its a bridge training exercise

i will elaborate, but i want to hear other peoples opinions on this too

There are other ways to do Chi Sao. In my lineage we really don't do much Chi Sao. When we do it, is a true sticking exercise similar to what a lot of people do with dan chi sao but with 2 hands.

[t_niehoff]

The interest I would have in this type of video is not to prove whether or not you train with BJJ BB's or MMA fighters - I believe you do. I believe you have been training BJJ with Vaghi for a number of years now, and sparring at MMA schools.

The interest I would have would be in seeing your application of your short range dirty boxing approach to WCK skills in a fighting environment. More like what you guys do at the YMCA - under your control, not in someone else's school where video would be an etiquette issue. I just would be interested in the application from a purist perspective. Regardless of whether it's UFC level, small show level, or TMA good effort level.

And as I said, I may get around to doing some videos in the future. Making videos has never been a priority of mine. And, right now, I'm recovering from a fractured ankle (that I got training).

[grasshopper 2.0]

Ya I agree and I see where you are coming from. Then, can't we agree the whole requests from knifefighter and others here for vids as evidence a bit out of the scheme of things?

It seems that many of threads on here come down to the "show me evidence" response...

And like u said, its not like we carry a camera everywhere we go, let alone to another school to "fight".

It just seems like quite an unpractical request...even the guys who post this request don't have a vid of any sort (not even a demo?).

You don't get skill from your teacher. You can have Rickson teach you BJJ or Ali teach you boxing but that's not where your skill comes from. It comes from your rolling, from your sparring. The Gracies even say, "You are only as good as your sparring partner." Skill comes from practicing the skill.

Alan, for example, learned WCK from Robert. Robert taught him the fundamentals of WCK. But Robert didn't teach or develop Alan's fighting (application of WCK) -- Alan did that through his WORK, of training with good fighters, of sparring with good people, etc. That's the ONLY way. It's the way in all of athletics. Fighting/WCK is no different than any other athletic activity. You learn and develop any skill by doing it. You learn the fundamentals and then you play the game.

We need to recognize that and to recognize the problem of listening to people who aren't any good, who are poorly skilled, etc. And that's because when we listen to the poorly skilled, we go off in the wrong direction. This is what Dale is talking about. Then it is the case of the blind leading the blind. Robert's motto is to let application be your sifu -- let the fight teach you. Don't stick to dogma, to his teaching, to anything other than the fight. In that way, we are not bound by an instructor. This too is the way in all athletics.

[Knifefighter]

And like u said, its not like we carry a camera everywhere we go, let alone to another school to "fight".

Come on... video cameras are everywhere. I'm betting at any single training session you guys do, several people there will have cell phones that have video capability.

[grasshopper 2.0]

Terence - care to respond??

Well if that's the case kf, then what about your teacher or your teacher's teacher and so on? No cameras/youtube/cell phones... And yet, u turned out ok ya?

Come on... video cameras are everywhere. I'm betting at any single training session you guys do, several people there will have cell phones that have video capability.

[Knifefighter]

Terence - care to respond??

Well if that's the case kf, then what about your teacher or your teacher's teacher and so on? No cameras/youtube/cell phones... And yet, u turned out ok ya?

My teachers who actually taught me to fight were fighters. I either saw them fight or saw the students they produced fight against a variety of outside opponents. I trained boxing with Art Saxell who had trained many boxers that I had seen fight. I trained MT/kickboxing at the Mejuro Dojo with sensei Kurosaki who had trained several world champion MT/kickboxers whom I also saw fight as well as trained with. I trained wrestling with two national wrestling champions, both of whom I saw wrestle. I trained BJJ with the Gracies, all of whom I have seen fight.

Not to mention the fact that none of the above teachers was teaching anything that couldn't be seen when watching any good fighter. None of these teachers was making claims for things working (i.e. standing submissions) that couldn't be easily demonstrated in a variety of full-contact formats.

I also learned some "fighting" from some non-fighters, much of which did not work, so I had to either throw that out or modify it significantly.

[Yoshiyahu]

Of course I don't expect you to visit me any more than I expect you to go to a good MMA gym or BJJ school to train. You're never going to step outside of your comfort-bubble and your little pond. Nor do you want to do the necessary work to truly develop skill.

I got $10 when can I come to YMCA to meet you...What day? I want to meet your group and You!

Yeah right, I'm coming to see you in St. Louis.

Whenever you're in NYC.....

1302 Avenue H,
Brooklyn, NY

Hey when do you expect to be in St.louis I would love to meet you. I am looking for skilled fighters to test out my WC. NewYork sounds like a great place for WC..Are there any Yuen Kay San schools there???

Anyway when you decide to come to STL hit me up...on email so i can give you my number and contact info. I train with a few people every friday nights and some saturday mornings and every sunday mornings. What day would you like to meet.

no old boy its does matter what you do you keep telling people how they should train and practice but you dont do it yourself nor do you lend yourself as an example of the methods of training you preach

see why the posters here for the most part think your a buffoon who is only knowledgeable in keyboard kung fu?

I will test his WC when ever he has the time. But i won't bad mouth his WC. If he meets me I will simply tell you he is a man of his word. An trains hard.

[Pacman]

I will test his WC when ever he has the time. But i won't bad mouth his WC. If he meets me I will simply tell you he is a man of his word. An trains hard.

even if you meet him and spar, he wont be using WC. im sure he will be kickboxing but tell you it is WC because he protected his center haha.

id be looking to see if he fights with skill and not just with aggression. please videotape it.

[Yoshiyahu]

even if you meet him and spar, he wont be using WC. im sure he will be kickboxing but tell you it is WC because he protected his center haha.

id be looking to see if he fights with skill and not just with aggression. please videotape it.

I doubt if I be allowed to bring a camera or a friend to tape for me.

[Pacman]

I doubt if I be allowed to bring a camera or a friend to tape for me.

terrence wont care he has nothing to hide. he never said he was against it...he just said he never got around to it

come on terrence. clarence has $10. lets do this.

terrence and clarence. the next odd couple?

[Yoshiyahu]

terrence wont care he has nothing to hide. he never said he was against it...he just said he never got around to it

come on terrence. clarence has $10. lets do this.

terrence and clarence. the next odd couple?

You got a rhyme going there ha ha...

[k gledhill]

Why chi-sau ?

the development of SLT striking idea. tthe idea is to strike a long a line before us, xing the wists along the line so they intersect anything on it at ANGLES/FLANKS thoughtlessly
blindfolded even .
Then the stages of arm striking development and deflection start :

dan chi sao- single striking/deflection started in a 2 beat, elbow position/ strike , routine.
not to stick to each other but try to use each others opposites to develop the other...jum elbow versus tan elbow ...one is trying to stay in as it hits, the other is trying to spread out as it hits...each tries to hold the centerline as it hits [ more info but lots of words]. This is done at a slightly extended distance to not allow contact yet, thats in chi-sao.

Add the redundant aspect to the beginner, that the 2 beat correction drill will be done in single beats when fighting from no pre-contact. Just simple strikes with the added bonus of simultaneous ability in each [ using tactical movement to make it function correctly].

So after learning striking and elbow ideas of the SLT and using them in motion slowly we move from single arms at a far distance to double ambidextrous ability at a closer proximity to allow contact and elbows to work together at fighting distances.

!st we do facing and rolling to make the co-ordination of either side work...
add the dan chi-sao idea of striking and maintaining centerline integrity in fluid striking and elbow position recovery...striking an attempted strike from either using the opposite techniques for developmental partnership.

We can start to show impact [or not] by taking an arm away while rolling and allow the partner to try to move us with their striking impact to our chest [pads may be worn later when it starts to hurt [ if ] the idea being to not seek hands/arms but hit when the hands are free...they will be free before contact ...so their idea is to strike first with the nearest arm to the flanking line of entry [left or right].

seung ma toi ma drills are introduced , probably the most important aspect of the drill often overlooked. One partner attacks in stepping frorm right or left entry, role playing for the partner that a given side is coming in extending towards them striking/grabbing/pushing...a side left or right ...based on a face off of pre fight, it prepares us to instinctively adopt a side counter attacking response , thoughtlessly....adding the proximity of the counters we offer using the simultaneous striking arms from eithe rarm striking individually across empty space or not using the angles and techniques from the previous stages, only now we dont stand facing square in a basic stance or use two extended arms to roll etc... the basic idea is that each arm of ours can act as two versus 1 isolated arm/side, even if it turns before us and tries to use the other side we can shift and reface the offered angles with no contact to feel anything just refacing with chum kil to take the new angles ...thoughtlessly ass we keep attacking at the trained angles and using the SAME techniques developed in the chi-sao stages...


chum kil facing the angles of attack while striking with the SLT 'little idea' genius. Very simple tactical ideas at work...always simple striking coupled with lead arm clearing actions to simply be able to freely attack and strike unhindered by the need to control an arm with 2 of ours..rendering the little idea redundant and making it a wrstl controlling arm chasing fest.

no two actions to be defensive ....so we have each arm trained to be aboth a strike and a parry using the forearms to act as a second set of hands , while the fists always can strike into the targets without moving off the centerline..

tan & jum never leave the centerline in the SLT nor do they fighting

no wristing is used becaus ewrist deflections take the 'gun barrel' off the target...part of the chi-sao is to train to avoid using the wrists to move off the alignmnet angles from SLT...deflect bringing the elbows in for jum and tan out while striking from either side and we have 2 arms capable of seamless facing and shifting while attacking by just turning and shifting to make the angles work for you...and fight 1/2 the person constantly...not allowing them to face us as the drills...

without this idea of tactical movement from knives we see chi-sao as the end of the product..to stand and feel stuff trapping chasing hands ..no idea of a striking relentless attack. Sadly what we do see is alot of guys doing lead leg center facing attacks with the fists alone as the primary idea..straight line etc...we know that idea is flawed by going down the pipe...easily out flanked from either arm of a guy in the playground throwing hay makers...so what missing ? a tactical idea .

How to approach a battle that can end in death ...repeatedly...we want to do it again so we use each other in role playing to make it intuitive t real time before us ...guys come from a direction we dont want to face their strengths so we try to move to ours and their weakness constantly flowing and putting them under pressure to 'break' their flow at us and make them turn or move away...

why face a guy whos 280lbs arm for arm ? when we can fight them easier with tactica ideas and techniques that they cant possibly share ie they overturn before us , chase our hands etc...they will do what we have trained not to do...make mistakes under pressure.

Chi-sao can be seen as the pressure tester.


analogy...you have 2 cars traveling the same direction along a road [your arrms] coming to an intersection...there are possible crashes if you go straight through to the other side of the intersection or not...but you dont stop to look for the cars coming along the other intersecting road...you drive through knowing you have another car that can make it through if the first is stopped and be replaced by another regardless if the lead car is stopped on the intersection by a crash...you can use the crash to keep on target...this idea can turn making the angles we intersect rotate, we still drive towards the destination only the east west north south has changed....we can shift our positions on this idea to AVOID collisions and use flowing shifting angles so we drive through gaps in traffic, rather than seeking to ram cars intentionally...its NOT bumper cars where you face oncoming traffic trying to drive head on and collide looking for another car to feel ..bad idea ....low %.... drive at angles to the intersection and % improve to go straight through to your destination....rough idea but you get the picture....

drive safely with thoughtless abandon .

[grasshopper 2.0]

Yea i'm not disagreeing with their skill, nor yours. And i beleive what you say. But isn't it just as easy for me to fill that same quote below with reference to a wing chun teacher A and references to other kung fu or wing chun styles?

My point being, that if that were the case, you wouldn't believe me. In other words, there is no way to describe on a forum, using written language, in a way to convince you otherwise that WCK may actual be effective in a full contact scenario. Which explains why one would ask the "show me the evidence" question..but like your teacher and your teacher's teacher and your own statement below, such evidence isn't available.

So in effect, i could disagree with you and make the "no evidence therefore you're full of it" argument...

But in reality, the guys you do train with do have skill, even though there's no such evidence beyond your personal account. So really, such a request for "proof" is really quite impractical

Do you see what i mean?

My teachers who actually taught me to fight were fighters. I either saw them fight or saw the students they produced fight against a variety of outside opponents. I trained boxing with Art Saxell who had trained many boxers that I had seen fight. I trained MT/kickboxing at the Mejuro Dojo with sensei Kurosaki who had trained several world champion MT/kickboxers whom I also saw fight as well as trained with. I trained wrestling with two national wrestling champions, both of whom I saw wrestle. I trained BJJ with the Gracies, all of whom I have seen fight.

Not to mention the fact that none of the above teachers was teaching anything that couldn't be seen when watching any good fighter. None of these teachers was making claims for things working (i.e. standing submissions) that couldn't be easily demonstrated in a variety of full-contact formats.

I also learned some "fighting" from some non-fighters, much of which did not work, so I had to either throw that out or modify it significantly.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea but seeing a video doesn't always prove skill. Some will believe that the video is fantasy or rehersed and doubt your skill. Others will see your video and doubt your ability due to your structure or the way it looks when various techniques are applied.

Yea i'm not disagreeing with their skill, nor yours. And i beleive what you say. But isn't it just as easy for me to fill that same quote below with reference to a wing chun teacher A and references to other kung fu or wing chun styles?

My point being, that if that were the case, you wouldn't believe me. In other words, there is no way to describe on a forum, using written language, in a way to convince you otherwise that WCK may actual be effective in a full contact scenario. Which explains why one would ask the "show me the evidence" question..but like your teacher and your teacher's teacher and your own statement below, such evidence isn't available.

So in effect, i could disagree with you and make the "no evidence therefore you're full of it" argument...

But in reality, the guys you do train with do have skill, even though there's no such evidence beyond your personal account. So really, such a request for "proof" is really quite impractical

Do you see what i mean?