Timeframes: Striking vs. grappling

[Wayfaring]

in his ufc jammies ...

You have ufc jammies? pics or it didn't happen

[Lucas]

throwing: my two cents

timing, balance, momentum, force, leverage, all of these come into play to one degree or another during the execution of a throw. and more.

when your opponent is resisting your atempts to offbalance him, is countring your attempts at using different leverages, and is not providing you the correcting momentum to steal, you will rely more so on strenth of force to help to create the ideal throwing situation.

a non compliant opponent will be expecting you to use technique to overcome him, and will be doing likewise. he will be looking to stuff and counter ever thing you do. you will have to create openings.

when you cannot use a strike to set up a throw, you are going to have to create the set up in another fashion. often standing grappling from the clinch force will be used back and forth, side to side, up and down to look for a weakness to then apply proper technique.

its a balance act. yin yang if you want. there will always be, to one degree or another, all factors of movement and manipulation in a resisting match to throw an opponent.

even when you have a compliant partner, depending on the throw, muscular contraction and force is always used. even if its minimal it is there. sometimes more so, depending on the situation.

its not black and white.

[goju]

yeah thats what im pretty much sayying of course there some force evolved but the intention was too use minimum force to achieve the maximum result like aikido

[goju]

was that up at nate marquardt's place in denver? i heard he was up there before he went down to greg jackson's place in albuquerque.

no thats was over at t's ko
i think all of the guys from there train over at nates and vice versa if im correct

[Kansuke]

Strength matters. It is ONE of the things that matter. When and how to use more or less force relative to what your opponent is doing is the point. If you try to use more force when you shouldn't you will walk right into something. If you need to use force but don't have any you will get tossed around like a rag doll.

[Frost]

mate cool it with your im not a real this or i dont train hard for all i know your just some teenager sitting in his ufc jammies who claims he trains as well so if your going to act like a idiot with these little jabs i suggest you take them else where

Fair enough you are right you never know why you are talking to on the net

"lol so do explain to me why standing joint locks are in so many martial arts if they dont work please do enlighten me because im curious to know your brilliant explanation for why they were added but dont work(this should be fun)"

Different period of history different context and time. I wasn’t there who knows why they were added?

I suspect the majority of these moves were created in a period of time when armour was worn AND weapons such as swords were carried. you needed to control the wrist of an opponent before he could draw his weapon and thus lots of movements based around wrist and arm grabs were developed, (and from there various standing locks.) Also I suspect the wearing of armour aided in standing locks as it inhibited your opponent’s ability to move swiftly or quickly retract his arm/weapon and allowed you to control him better.

Why they are still practised now? Like a lot of things in traditional styles I suspect they are practised out of respect to the founders of the style rather than because they are still of practical use, times change, but people still cling to the past.


My question to you is why if the standing locks are in so may arts do we rarely if ever see them being used effectively? If they are as you said in one of your posts a more efficient and effective means of control and taking someone down than simply hugging them close and falling to the ground with them why is there so little evidence of them being used, in fights, in grappling competitions and in control of suspect situations?

[Lucas]

standing locks are just too tricky of a beast to be able to successfully pull off on a resisting opponent for a fair margin of the times attempted. its just a bad gamble to put your eggs in that basket. speaking from a modern standpoint.

also note that a standing lock should be quick and end in a break, generally followd by a sweep/takedown/throw. they werent developed to be applied to allow for a tap out. they are meant to destroy the joint. namely the elbow. you take out an elbow and that arm is useless. even in armor the elbow joint is still at risk. well unless maybe your talking full plate linked western crusader armor. but chinese armor wasnt built like that. it was sectional.

as for law enforcement, they have guns, and back up. you see a lot of standing locks used by law enforcement specialists(generally the same 2 or 3), but often you will see them having back up help, or their suspect is not really in a position to resist thouroughly, ie: weak, intoxicated, etc.

edit: also note that when an officer applies a standing lock, genearlly thats followed up to the ground, wall, or squad car, to apply the cuffs. doesnt generally stay standing.

if an officers suspects that hey cant physically restrain someone, thats when they use the gun and have you lie down face first on the ground. you run, they tazer/chase tackle.

now we've seen a few standing submissions in modern MMA, but those are less common than high kick KO's. ya they happen, but most people dont train them enough to utilize them in the ring, because frankly they arent made for that.

[goju]

yep what lucas said largely is great about them
further people over commit to them you have t o be able to fluidly transition to something else if the lock attempt is failed which most people wont do
also of course striking helps to aid in the lock being that in can damage your opponent and prevent him realizing what your doing
and as lucas noted the general idea of the lock was to break alimb or tear the muscle not to get them to tap out
the best time to aply a lock is when some one is trying to grab you like a clinch forexample or they are trying to grab your clothing

[Knifefighter]

they werent developed to be applied to allow for a tap out. they are meant to destroy the joint. namely the elbow.

Ground submissions weren't developed to get the tap. They were developed to break the joint. However, it just so happens that, since they allow for so much control, they also allow the option of the tap.

[Knifefighter]

the best time to aply a lock is when some one is trying to grab you like a clinch forexample or they are trying to grab your clothing

If that was the case, you should have no problem doing an NHB match against a BJJ guy, right? Because all you will have to do is apply your standing joint lock when he tries to grab you, right?

[Lucas]

Ground submissions weren't developed to get the tap. They were developed to break the joint. However, it just so happens that, since they allow for so much control, they also allow the option of the tap.

definately. this of course is why we see relatively no standing submissions in mma. sure some, but its a much safer route for both parties to take it to the ground where theres so much more control possible. there's just too much freedom of movement standing to safely apply the lock.

a good example is how many accidental breaks/tears/hyperextentions that happen on the ground where there is so much more control. and thats on the ground! just immagine the ammount of damage that would happen on a regular basis if people trained standing locks realistically

[goju]

if you watch proper chin na applied like yang jwing mings for example the locks are painful enough to make you stand on your tip toes so there isnt gonna be much fighting back and if there is then the next route would be to snap it
another thing also to take into consideration is alot of standing joint locks that are taught are crap and are not realisitc take bjj's standing locks for example i personal like bjj but i think their standing submission they have are some of the lousiest locks ive ever seen

[goju]

If that was the case, you should have no problem doing an NHB match against a BJJ guy, right? Because all you will have to do is apply your standing joint lock when he tries to grab you, right?

nope and if the lock fails then just punch him or do something else

[Knifefighter]

definately. this of course is why we see relatively no standing submissions in mma. sure some, but its a much safer route for both parties to take it to the ground where theres so much more control possible. there's just too much freedom of movement standing to safely apply the lock.

a good example is how many accidental breaks/tears/hyperextentions that happen on the ground where there is so much more control. and thats on the ground! just immagine the ammount of damage that would happen on a regular basis if people trained standing locks realistically

Not the case at all. I can tell you with impunity that every single MMA fighter and submission grappler would love it if standing locks actually worked a decent percentage of the time.

Safety has nothing to do with it. If they worked we'd be using them all the time.

If they worked AND were as dangerous as you say, they would be illegal in competitions.

The fact is, neither of those is true.

[Knifefighter]

nope and if the lock fails then just punch him or do something else

So, you'd be OK with that NHB match then?