Originally Posted by
RenDaHai
@ Sal
Wow, some list of videos... I can't see them unfortunately as it is banned in china, however from your comments I recognise a lot of the videos.
Firstly we can't be too pedantic about the forms, even two teachers from the same school will perform a form quite differently.
There are two major distinct forms. THere are many many versions of each, but the vast mojority fit into one of these two categories.
1. The one that starts with two palms crossing at the dantian- sparrow hawk turns its body - wind through the ears - cut palm in rest stance. In the middle it has whirlwind kick to rest stance praise buddha, after which it has two pu bu kicks, one to each side then it jump kicks into 'a gnarled tree with twisted roots' the classic luohan posture.
This form is the one listed above, it is the 'da luohan' in Tagous books and, as different as may be, it IS the one taught by Degen Da Shi. Degen died in 1970. This form I know is the one he taught Yang Gui Wu, I assume (because i have not met him in person) it is the one taught to Zhu Tian Xi (assume because my master told me it was and because i didn't get a chance to look inside but I have seen the cover of the book tian xi wrote, he uses 'meng hu chu dong' this posture does not exist in the other luohan quan set). Different as the one in Tagous books, the one listed and the one Degen practiced are... They at least contain the above mentioned postures in common. We can assume they come from one form originally.
This is also the same form practiced by Deyang under the name xiao luohan. Deyangs is about the least correct version. I know for a fact neither his master Sufa nor his master Suxi had this form, and i have never seen anyone else do it like this so i assume he changed some of the moves himself.
The number of moves in this form vary between 36 (deyangs) about 85 (tagous). The book by shi yong wen lists 126 moves (although some intermediate postures are included).
In 9 form luohan this is er lo (to first zuo shan) and san lo.
2. The form practiced by Zhang shi jie (white robes on black background, you know the video). This form is more common in Deng Feng. In Tagous books this is the form referred to as 'Xiao Luohan'. Without actually knowing tagous form you might find this hard to see, however it is indeed the same form. Ofcourse a lot of moves are different and zhang shi jie has a lot extra shou fa, but it is basically the same sequence of the same moves. (some xu bu's changed to gong bu's and vice versa, a head but instead of an elbow, but roughly the same). This form does not actually have the Luohan quan character, apart form two moves (luohan shui jiao and Tiger shakes his fur).
In 9 form luohan quan this is yi lo luohan.
I do know Zhu Tian Xi spent some time teaching at Zhang Shi Jie's school (hui guang Wu xiao, XIn Zheng), I dont know if Zhang shi jie is ZHu tian xis student.
THe video zhang shi jie made is about 15 years old now.
3. There is a third common luohan quan. 'refined luohan' or er lo luohan in tagous books. This is very common in the big schools in dengfeng, it is often used for competition. Originally the form ended with the 'contemplation of buddha' stance (sword fingers pointed to the temple). However since most competitions require 1min20 second forms and this fell slightly short they added a few moves, so it has a few moves form Pao quan slapped on the end. THis form is not an old form. It is luohan quan made up of some of remaining fragments of luohan not contained in the two forms i named above. It is not really worth learning. It contains NO symmetry. You can tell how well constructed a form is from its subtle poetic symmetry. In modern forms they try to make every stance different to make it look cool, however this loses the character of the form, and loses the strategy hidden within. Its a modern form, don't bother.
I dont know if Degen knew both of these forms (1 and 2) (he knew a lot and taught different things to different people). But I do Know for a fact that the form by Shi Yong Wen is the same as the form taught to Yang Gui Wu.... I read an article by Zhu tian xi that was about how he travelled to meet Degens other students. They practiced forms together including luohan so I assume Zhu Tian Xi used the same form. It is of course possible that Zhu tian xi may have learned both 1 and 2 as above.
In my opinion 1 is the best luohan quan. 2 has perghaps more useful applications but 1 has more character. And it has the twisted roots stance which is awesome.
The book by shi yong wen is just called 'Shao lin si luo han quan' . On the first page is an old photo of Shi De Gen.
永文-YongWen