Mixed Martial Arts - The Unstoppable Historical Force

[Frost]

As for "no one speaks for all of wing chun" - this is a strawman argument. By now, there are literally hundreds of wing chun vids from wing chun people from countless lineages (and from all around the world) who have posted vids, ie.- on youtube.

Can you please refer me to even one such vid (or anything else) that demonstrates how "pure" wing chun will deal successfully against such a scenario againsts a skilled mma fighter/wrestler/grappler?

Oh I forgot, you don't have any use for vids on youtube, or anywhere else for that matter.

Hummm....

This is such a simple request I can not for the life of me see why people argue with it. There are hundreds of sifu's out there happy to demo there stuff on the net, why not show it actually working against an opponent who is skilled and using full resistance… if instructors are happy to show themselves demoing stuff and are happy to post on boards talking about real wing chun, why not just show it in action?

[goju]

I studied southern arts for a decade or so I was always taught bridge meant contact with your opponent’s arms, occupying their centre and controlling their arms, usually the forearm….. but are you saying any connection can be a bridge: single neck tie, double neck tie, under hook, arm drag, 2 on 1s?

Because these are the typical connections we see these days people do not seek the bridge as I was shown it, and when you get into close contact range they are more likely to tie up the body and/or head than look to control the arms and in the southern arts I learned I never saw these tie ups addressed (or hitting from these positions covered), this is however just what I have been shown, if you have been shown differently then of course your opinion will be different

yes for example a clinch is a neck trap


um yeah they are as i told you a while back china na was developed to counter the mongolian wrestlers when they attempted to grab to tie up and throw

not to mention the idea of trapping or bridging or whatever you wish to call it is to not let you opponent tie you up to begin with

[Frost]

yes for example a clinch is a neck trap


um yeah they are as i told you a while back china na was developed to counter the mongolian wrestlers when they attempted to grab to tie up and throw

not to mention the idea of trapping or bridging or whatever you wish to call it is to not let you opponent tie you up to begin with

Ok i will regret this but i'll bite, what is a neck trap, what systems is it found in and how is it trained?

Oh and i am still waiting for your hstorical documents to prove chin na was developed for that reason, an article bysome boucer in LA is not really proof

[Vajramusti]

"Oh I forgot, you don't have any use for vids on youtube, or anywhere else for that matter.

Hummm.... "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Victor, I try not to over generalize. Individuals do matter. Systems don't meet systems-individuals do. There are good and bad people in any system.

Per your posts- you do seem to have your mind made up on different things- such as combining
your conceptions of a boxing, catch and wing chun and possibly a touch of mt and jj. Each of those things take time to learn well. But if your mix is your cup of tea, I wish you well.
I just don't think that your oft stated mix is everyone's.



Cheers,

Joy

[Vajramusti]

I studied southern arts for a decade or so I was always taught bridge meant contact with your opponent’s arms, occupying their centre and controlling their arms, usually the forearm….. but are you saying any connection can be a bridge: single neck tie, double neck tie, under hook, arm drag, 2 on 1s?

Because these are the typical connections we see these days people do not seek the bridge as I was shown it, and when you get into close contact range they are more likely to tie up the body and/or head than look to control the arms and in the southern arts I learned I never saw these tie ups addressed (or hitting from these positions covered), this is however just what I have been shown, if you have been shown differently then of course your opinion will be different

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Southern arts are not all the same. A bridge need not be the forearm. Sometimes people use a term too literally. How a hung gar person defines and uses a bridge may be quite different from another southern style.

Sometimes you can bypass making a bridge and hit directly- and for that moment you have a bridge- what you do with that bridge can vary with training and circumstances,

joy

[Frost]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Southern arts are not all the same. A bridge need not be the forearm. Sometimes people use a term too literally. How a hung gar person defines and uses a bridge may be quite different from another southern style.

Sometimes you can bypass making a bridge and hit directly- and for that moment you have a bridge- what you do with that bridge can vary with training and circumstances,

joy

Thanks for the reply Joy, now I understand that you can either bridge or bypass and hit directly, and that it can vary with training and circumstances, but what specifically do you consider a bridge then? From my training and perspective a bridge refers to arm contact, usually controlling your opponent’s arms or centre line, how do you define bridge and what does it mean to you?

Are you saying that any connection with your opponent can be a bridge, and that a neck tie, body lock, under hook etc can be considered a bridge and that these situations were trained in the past?

From my perspective they were not, but seeing as you have a different perspective and have trained longer I would be interested in your view

[Vajramusti]

Thanks for the reply Joy, now I understand that you can either bridge or bypass and hit directly, and that it can vary with training and circumstances, but what specifically do you consider a bridge then? From my training and perspective a bridge refers to arm contact, usually controlling your opponent’s arms or centre line, how do you define bridge and what does it mean to you?
((To me?In the beginning you can begin with part of the forearm (kiu) just behind the wrist -learning how to control the others bridge.But with time you go way beyond that. Eventually any clear connection between two persons energy body can be a bridge.Tyson's look at ill prepared Michael Spinks eyes in their fight created an early energy bridge. Spinks was done before he began. Buster Douglas's energy was fired up because he had just lost his mother before the Tyson fight. Tyson's piercing look meant nothing.Douglas's jabs began to create the bridges. There are many examples of a bridge being more than the hand.A MT guy grabbing my neck gives me a bridge- upto me how I cross it. But it takes a lot of investment in time and training to go beyond the elementary forearm as the bridge.
Not being obscure and cryptic- just takes lots of writing to explain in detail Unfortunately forum chats give short blips of communications. Face to face training together between individuals controlling their egos provides much better sharing and communicating opportunities.I am not talking about challenges but sharing real curiosities about how things work.((JOY))

Are you saying that any connection with your opponent can be a bridge, and that a neck tie, body lock, under hook etc can be considered a bridge and that these situations were trained in the past?

((The seeds have always been there.The implications and applications evolve with circumstances and individuals.)) Joy

From my perspective they were not, but seeing as you have a different perspective and have trained longer I would be interested in your view

((POVs can be and are often different- I have no problem with different perspectives. I too watch mma sometimes and sometimes enjoy it if there is a good match- like the Arlovski/Emilianko (forgive spellings). But inferences can vary- I often "see" different things from
Victor. Arlovski took some boxing lessons froma good teacher- but not enough to internalize things-
he forgot fundamentals and reverted to lifting his knee from the wrong distance. Emiliano retained his flow- goodnight Arlovski. One had an integrated POV the other less so. Emiliano had the line the other guy didnt.It's ok if we disagree.))Joy

[Ultimatewingchun]

"You do seem to have your mind made up on different things- such as combining
your conceptions of a boxing, catch and wing chun and possibly a touch of mt and jj. Each of those things take time to learn well. But if your mix is your cup of tea, I wish you well. I just don't think that your oft stated mix is everyone's." (Joy)
.................................


***I SEE another strawman argument being made here, Joy.

So I mix wing chun primarily with boxing and catch wrestling, so? Did I ever say that this is the one-and-only formula to cross train with and be a succcessful fighter with? There are scores of possibilities in this regard.

Furthermore, so it takes time to learn things like some boxing, wrestling, jiu jitsu. So what? If one doesn't want to spend the time, fine, that's their business. But if that same person (and I'm not just talking about you) wants to then make claims about what can be done just be using their "pure" system that can't be backed up in a convincing manner, ie.- post a vid that demos those claims against a skilled resisting opponent...

then we're dealing with a bunch of hot air.

And if one disdains the use of youtube (and now I am specifically talking about you)....and makes the argument, as I heard you make on several occasions, "that not everyone puts their material on youtube"....or..."not all good wing chun people post on youtube"....or..."not all good wing chun people WANT to post a vid on youtube"...

and of course I'm paraphrasing, but I'm sure you (and others who have been the reading the same posts I have) recognize the gist of what I'm saying as being your expressed sentiments...

then again what we see is an argument that can't (wont'?) be backed up with anything substantial.

[goju]

Ok i will regret this but i'll bite, what is a neck trap, what systems is it found in and how is it trained?

Oh and i am still waiting for your hstorical documents to prove chin na was developed for that reason, an article bysome boucer in LA is not really proof

a neck trap ie a clinch as in a neck grab that muay thai stylists use to control the person to knee them

the principle is the same in controlling the forearm or elbow in trapping in southern kung fu you are pinning a body part and using it to control the body

any time you are controlling any part of the body even if its the neck elbow leg etc etc it is a trap

ive seen clinching demonstrated along with knees in southern kung fu including wing chun

fine read up on eagle claw especially by leung shum it mentions the use of chin na on the battle field against the mongolian grapplers

[bennyvt]

i was always told that the hands go forward he they hit something (a arm or his face) them a either move it or use my hand as the bridge. You don't want to chi sao the guy. If you can punch him without him bringing his hands up keep going. We dont wait for a hand to be out.vt worked great against chow lay fut and they in in swinging like crazy so they didn't have arms left out either. Think of vt more like boxing. A punch blocks the punch or hits them. Its not a grappling hand.

[goju]

thats the problem too many people think bridging hands or trapping looks like wing chuns chi sao practice lol

[Frost]

thats the problem too many people think bridging hands or trapping looks like wing chuns chi sao practice lol

Not just wing chun, all the sticky hand drills I have seen involve largely arm contact and elbow or foreman control (apart from some of the chen stuff coming out of the chen village which looks a lot like wrestling). You can’t say the principle is all the same for arm neck or leg grabs, you have to drill those positions not just expect that because you have worked it in one area it will work in all the others.

For example I have studied lau gar, and tai chi extensively, I have also studied wing chun, bak mai, southern dragon and hung gar (but not to the same depth), never in these arts was I shown the neck clinch and how to deal with it, neck grabs yes but they are different. Just like I was taught how to control the arm but never how to deal with someone using under hooks on me, it was simply as far as I am aware never an attack that these arts had to deal with in the past (or if they did the techniques they used have been forgotten by and large by most instructors), but they are used now.

Out of interest what southern Chinese arts have you personally studied that showed you how to deal in depth with the plum, or over under hooks, body locks etc.?

“fine read up on eagle claw especially by leung shum it mentions the use of chin na on the battle field against the mongolian grapplers”

I asked for historical texts not books by instructors, real peer reviewed history texts.

I am not trying to be an a^se but just because someone’s master told them this was used on the battlefield is not proof for me (I have heard way too many stories in the martial arts passed off as historical fact).

I am sceptical because I have not seen any china na used effectively against a wrestler in person or on video, which makes me think it probably didn’t work against wrestlers back then either, or if it did it looks a lot different than what is practised now

[Vajramusti]

Since this is a mma list- I will respect the label.

I would rather discuss wing chun on the wing chun list.
Not all wing chun is the same.

Good wishes,
Joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

For example I have studied lau gar, and tai chi extensively, I have also studied wing chun, bak mai, southern dragon and hung gar (but not to the same depth), never in these arts was I shown the neck clinch and how to deal with it, neck grabs yes but they are different. Just like I was taught how to control the arm but never how to deal with someone using under hooks on me, it was simply as far as I am aware never an attack that these arts had to deal with in the past (or if they did the techniques they used have been forgotten by and large by most instructors), but they are used now.

I can show you a few Hung Kuen moves that work VS the MT clinch, but that is because I have done BOTH MT AND Hung Kuen.

[goju]

i respond too this in full later on im busy yacking with my gf

this is a good thing though perhaps a thread should be made out of discussing counters for clinches and body locks that tma stylists have

id like to see those hung kuen coutners as well