Balls, Middle or Heel?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Hard to do when your body doesn't know how.

JR

After four years, the OP's body "knows how," but he is getting hung up in the details. The goal is to win fights and not be a ridiculous pedant, if one remembers that all else is cream cheese as they say.

[sihing]

After four years, the OP's body "knows how," but he is getting hung up in the details. The goal is to win fights and not be a ridiculous pedant, if one remembers that all else is cream cheese as they say.

I totally agree with you here. IMO there is a difference between training and application.

On the forums here were are discussing training, the concept behind it and what we aim to achieve thru it. Usually discussions are detailed orientated to be able to communicate what we are trying to say to one another (which is failing miserably on this forum..). How is it possible to discuss application when you and I are 100's if not 1000's of miles apart from one another? Isn't application a personal one on one thing?

James

[HumbleWCGuy]

I totally agree with you here. IMO there is a difference between training and application.

On the forums here were are discussing training, the concept behind it and what we aim to achieve thru it. Usually discussions are detailed orientated to be able to communicate what we are trying to say to one another (which is failing miserably on this forum..). How is it possible to discuss application when you and I are 100's if not 1000's of miles apart from one another? Isn't application a personal one on one thing?

James

I see application as a finite set of possibilities. Just as for boxing, there is a slugger, boxer, volume punchers, hybrid fighters and so on, so too do they exist in WCK or other striking arts. I feel like most people fit into 1 of X number of categories. Each categories comes with a different structure and a structure it is vulnerable to. Structure as Hendrick has pointed out prescribes particular techniques. Being as water to me means recognizing these situations and adapting structure accordingly.
Obviously no two fighters are exactly alike (usually), but these categories have seemed to emerged over time. This is the heart of situational fighting.

[HumbleWCGuy]

So if some one says, Sifu do I pivot on the balls, flat, or heel, I say it depends on the structure that you chose. Are you flat-footed weight on the heel, flat-footed weight on whole foot, or on the balls of your feet? i.e. what is economical given the structure?

[anerlich]

Of course this is relevant to lift a weight on a vertical plane - not sure how it relates to an oncoming pressure.

I agree, its more like pushing a car rather than squatting a heavy weight - try doing that on your heels.

And then we could discuss jump squats, which you can't do very well just on your heels .. but neither type of squat is particularly relevant to the discussion IMO.

[sihing]

I agree, its more like pushing a car rather than squatting a heavy weight - try doing that on your heels.

And then we could discuss jump squats, which you can't do very well just on your heels .. but neither type of squat is particularly relevant to the discussion IMO.

The problem as I see it with your jumping squat example, is that the goal with the heel sitting is not to jump up with it, so your example doesn't really apply here. If I want to jump, I will squat down, plant from my heel, push up with my legs, and add on to at the end with a push from my calf muscles (simple explaination) which raises my heel off the ground, this is a different goal than using the heel concept in WC. We are talking vegetables here, you guys are talking fruits.

When I plant to recieve force, I will do so by planting it on the heel, doing so with a raised heel will mean your structure is unstable since the calf muscles will not be able to handle someone's force coming into all by itself. To start the process of giving force out, I push from the heel (this stablilizes my structure, without doing that where does the force come from, am I optimizing it?) and can add to it by pushing off the ball of the foot as well, this is application stuff. In training, when learning it you do the basics, learn to plant the foot solidly, to be able to apply the structure in a rudimentary way. In application I can add to it all by lifting at the ball of the foot if I want to, as I am not so concerned with doing it perfect, text book like, but rather to get out of it all that I can. Also when the goal is to hit someone, it is a shorter movement, quicker as well, than pushing something that is heavy. When I practice poi pai, then I have to sit more and can use the heel first for rooting and raised heel for pushing someone out of their position. Pushing and Pulling are helping actions to set up favorable positions as needed.

James

[SAAMAG]

Now Ive been training for just under 4 years now and just started to get a little obsessed about when I'm doing the turning/shifting whether I'm doing it on my balls, middle or heel of the foot.

Until recently I've never taken much notice of which part of the foot I shift on but feel it has quite a bearing on your positioning and centre of gravity. For example shifting on the balls of your feet moves you off your centre line more than it would if you shifted just on the heels.

Below is an extract of something I picked up from the web which is quite interesting.

"Turning on the heels maintains the most stable position. The heels are the direct link between the body and the floor; they receive the full weight of the body, unlike other parts of the foot. This makes them the most logical pivot for the body. If one turns on the toes or the center of the foot the whole body will swing off the center axis"

"shifting on the toes or center of the foot throws the body off its primary axis, promoting a loss of balance. Also, if one turns with the toes, they support the body weight and there is nothing left to control balance. Turning with the weight on the heels leaves the toes free, allowing them to assist in maintaining balance"

Now I really donn't know if there is a linage issue or just a case of your own personal body dynamics..shorther legs and feet etc. But I wondered if others are concious of how they are shifting and if they have been trained this way?

Regards

I didn't read the entire thread, just this first post, but fwiw I first learned to shift on the heel of the foot...later when I looked at other lineages I learned about using the middle of the foot.

To be honest, I'm thinking that no individual method is "correct" per say. It was taught one way or the other long ago, and as time passed....different students of the original method preferred and developed their own ideologies on shifting as well as everything else wing chun people argue about.

When its all said and done, don't worry too much about it. Try it another way if you want, but stick with what works for you.

[anerlich]

The problem as I see it with your jumping squat example, is that the goal with the heel sitting is not to jump up with it, so your example doesn't really apply here.

You must have missed the part where I said neither the squat (as brought up by Chinaboxer) nor jump squat was a good example, so thanks for backing me up on that one.

[Phil Redmond]

The bottom line is the one standing after a fight is right.

[k gledhill]

unless the guy on the ground is playing possum [cue the flute music !...]
" a dying man always has one action left "

[hpclub]

Dear all

A few weeks ago I made the original post about this issue and I thank you all for your responses. I have been practising alternating how I turn and feel alot more comfotable and balanced in my turning.

As I mentioned I used to unconciously turn on my balls (of my feet rather than genetalia) and uite often during the forms found my self off balance. Turning FROM my heels I am far more comfortable and feel there is a lot more power generated.

Once comment from Sihing really got me thinking. By shifting on my balls creating an angle and in a sense moving away and around my opponant I wasn't actually effecting their structure. By shifting oin your heels you are actually turning them more and thereby affecting there structure while maintaining yours.

Again thank you all....good night god bless.

[k gledhill]

you only turn to face an angle on the opponent, not to stand before them like chi-sao and turn chasing arms with blocking arms....etc...pivoting like a statue.

turn to face their motion...

the axis line /spine is like the center of a revolving door, shifting on anything but the heels will shift the revolving doors axis ...you can shift the axis with shuffle stepping 3"x3"x3...etc...allowing the angles to be achieved ,but not losing your control of the axis line ...this is done in chum kil.

the same applies for tilting the doorpanels iow , leaning forwards, sideways...the doors wont turn as they should...keep upright, balanced in movement...

SLT + CK the fighting 'bubble'

[couch]

Once comment from Sihing really got me thinking. By shifting on my balls creating an angle and in a sense moving away and around my opponant I wasn't actually effecting their structure. By shifting oin your heels you are actually turning them more and thereby affecting there structure while maintaining yours.

This was good stuff he wrote. But always remember that you are a human being and have compensating mechanisms (leaning, sinking the knees) to compensate and make it work.

Either way:
"Learn the principle, abide by the principle, dissolve the principle." - Bruce Lee