Shaolin vs. Muay Thai

[Jimbo]

On a side note, Fujiwara deserves some mention. He was not really a kyokushin guy, though he had a shodan in sh!to ryu and trained under Kurosaki, who was in that first group of kyokushin guys who lost and also created Mejiro gym (and thus gave birth to Dutch Muay Thai). Kurosaki trained muay thai in thailand and gained an intimate knowledge of the style.

The funny thing to me about the superiority complex kung fu guys have regarding muay thai (especially ring muay thai) is that kung fu didn't fare well against muay thai even back in the day, check out those fights from the 20s...

The few guys who can hang with muay thai fighters in the ring, train like ring fighters - with round timers, bags, pads, gloves, and sparring; not with a lot of forms and fancy postures. The techniques that they succeed with tend to be simple strikes & throws, not overly-intricate techniques, crazy stances, or fancy animal shapes. If a guy comes along just doing forms & stances, fights with them, and succeeds; more power to him. but this sense of superiority because muay thai doesn't spend a lot of time with those low percentage training methodologies is friggin ridiculous.

Good points.
Though I often got the feeling that the sense of superiority over Muay Thai in the past among some kung fu stylists (at least overseas) was more often a nationalistic thing, more than it was MT's fewer stances, less if any form work, etc. Although, I do remember years ago reading a Hong Kong kung fu magazine from about the mid-1970s, after the Thais decimated a team from HK. There were some 'reaction articles' featuring some well-known masters who talked about techniques that 'should' beat MT and their 'too few techniques'. Kind of a coulda-shoulda-woulda reaction.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I find it humoring when Muay Thai is "put down" or techniques or "too simple". The fact of the matter is Muay Thai produces better fighters than most traditional Kung Fu due to training methods.

Many Kung Fu styles have the same techniques found in Muay Thai, but they are not trained correctly. For example, throwing a flippy roundhouse in the air with a gay pose thown in is, suprisingly enough, not as effective as kicking Thai mitts or a heavybag. This is just one example but the point can be seen. Hell, how many times have we all heard people say Sanda is just Muay Thai with throws, and how far from the truth is that, really?

[sanjuro_ronin]

On a side note, Fujiwara deserves some mention. He was not really a kyokushin guy, though he had a shodan in sh!to ryu and trained under Kurosaki, who was in that first group of kyokushin guys who lost and also created Mejiro gym (and thus gave birth to Dutch Muay Thai). Kurosaki trained muay thai in thailand and gained an intimate knowledge of the style.

The funny thing to me about the superiority complex kung fu guys have regarding muay thai (especially ring muay thai) is that kung fu didn't fare well against muay thai even back in the day, check out those fights from the 20s...

The few guys who can hang with muay thai fighters in the ring, train like ring fighters - with round timers, bags, pads, gloves, and sparring; not with a lot of forms and fancy postures. The techniques that they succeed with tend to be simple strikes & throws, not overly-intricate techniques, crazy stances, or fancy animal shapes. If a guy comes along just doing forms & stances, fights with them, and succeeds; more power to him. but this sense of superiority because muay thai doesn't spend a lot of time with those low percentage training methodologies is friggin ridiculous.

Agreed, many good things came out of their initial defeats.

[Pork Chop]

Hell, how many times have we all heard people say Sanda is just Muay Thai with throws, and how far from the truth is that, really?

I've always maintained that Sanda is a separate style; don't get me wrong, it's just that there are certain truths to the training of almost any sport fighter.

Boxing, mma, american kickboxing, sanda, and muay thai all train in gyms with bags, pads, sparring, and rounds; but the techniques & strategies for each are unique.

Yes, in many ways a round kick is just a round kick, but akb, muay thai, and sanda all have peculiarities for when, where, why, and how they throw it. Then again, even sanda programs from China tend to have slightly different technique than most of the programs in the States (especially when it comes to hands). And on top of that, each gym has it's own specific methods.

While I had heard that sanshou programs in China were known to bring in Thai coaches to help them improve; the sanshou methodology, strategy, and techniques are unique.

In other words, sometimes there are enough differences to be something more than just a gym preference.


Looking at those Chinese Sanshou training vids available from the store, there's sooo much from the basic training principles that's just "wrong" by "universal" muay thai standards that it's different at a fundamental level. Same goes for the punching in the video, at a certain fundamental level it's just different than western boxing. It is its own thing.

Going back to "traditional" styles; as long as the training includes the "truths" of training like a fighter, I don't think anybody is disputing the validity of the training. It just hasn't really been demonstrated on a large scale yet that forms and posture training alone can get you there - or can even make you a superior fighter just by having them in your program. That is to say, they are just another exercise and their absence or inclusion shouldn't affect the style's validity.

[Lucas]

im looking forward to seeing this all go down though, i hope it does.

imo as long as there is a fair judge and both sides bring their A players, and the rules are decided on work for everyone it will be roughly even. one side will have 3 wins or it will be 2 win 2 loss 1 draw and tie it.

[GeneChing]

But this is an interesting tangent for sure, as long as it doesn't go back to the ol' Shaolin monk in MMA rant.

Sat, 12 Dec 2009
When muay Thai meets kung fu

Foshan in southern China’s Guangdong province – the birthplace of the late martial arts legend Bruce Lee – is gearing up for a battle royale on Dec 19 between the forces of muay Thai kick-boxing and kung fu.

The fuss all began when the Thai athletes declared they wanted to come to China to "wipe out’’ the historic Shaolin Temple – considered one of the birthplaces of kung fu.

But the Shaolin monks refused to rise to that bait. "In the history of the Shaolin Temple, we never challenge or agree to fight others,’’ Zheng Shumin, a representative of the temple, told the Chinese press.

Enter the Emei Martial Arts Association, followers of another style of kung fu and based in Sichuan province, who are now vowing to show these Thai interlopers the "real Chinese kung fu".

"We should stand up to such defiance,’’ said Zhang Ji, a representative of the association.

Meanwhile, Hongkong, the city that Lee called home, is gearing up for the debut of the Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) movement that, in recent years, has gained incredible worldwide popularity.

"Mixed martial arts is the fastest-growing sport in the world and as Bruce Lee is considered by many to be the father of the sport, it only makes sense that Hongkong have an MMA tournament with some of the best competition the region has to offer," event organiser Chris Pollak said in a press release.

The inaugural "Legend’’ competition will be held in Hongkong on Jan 11 (www.legendfc.com) and will feature 18 of the world’s top MMA fighters, including China’s two-time national sanda champion Zhao Zilong.

MMA pits fighters from martial arts styles such as sanda (China), judo (Japan), muay Thai (Thailand) and taekwondo (Korea) against each other in a format that could end in knockout, submission, technical knockout or referee decision.

MMA has now surpassed wrestling in the United States in terms of popularity. – AFP-Relaxnews

[Hugo]

The fact of the matter is Muay Thai produces better fighters than most traditional Kung Fu due to training methods.

Is true

I hope there going to be a video that 19 December. I want to se the face of the Shaolin when he lose, because he sure going to lose. These Shaolin don't train the real Kung Fu of old times, they just train modern wushu, only forms and forms etc hahahahah these Shaolin going to learn a good lesson from the Tai Boxing guys, these Tai guys have legs like stones, they can move like leopards!!

oo ooo i must see this much hahahahah

[elavenil]

today is 19 , does this match happen any update?

[LFJ]

here: http://video.sina.com.cn/sports/o/v/...03237070.shtml

i didnt even see what really knocked him out in this first match...

oh, and it says he is a shaolin disciple now.. after the fact, i guess.

looks like they were playing by sanda rules anyhow.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Spinning left backfist to the temple followed by what looks like a right palm strike or inner forearm to the back of the head. He may also have delivered a left punch as he was dragging/following the guy down.

[goju]

i cant see the clip how did the kung fu boys do

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I can't read chinese, it says something like "Kung Fu goes nuclear on Muay Thai Champions"

They did well, the first match was won by the Chinese fighter as described above. Haven't watched the others yet, gotta go.

[goju]

AHAHAHAHAHA all the mt nut riders are crying n their pillows now

[Pork Chop]

AHAHAHAHAHA all the mt nut riders are crying n their pillows now

no, not really
palming the back of someone's head is an illegal technique in most fightsports
either way, the winner wasn't fighting out of horse stance or using techniques out of hong quan, it was just another sport fighter
solid win for sanda but for shaolin, not so much

EDIT: The fight after that one is Kaoklai in black shorts. WOW! Bad decision! These matches don't really have much credibility after that... Kaoklai d@mn near pitched a shut out, out-threw the Chinese fighter and lost? What a joke of an event. Guess it's gotta be embarrassing to get totally destroyed in the one thing you're known for being good at (throws).

Third fight, dude in white & red flame shorts (EDIT2: This is naruepol fairtex, good fighter, chinese definitely won first round, after that not so sure). Watchin the highlights at the end of the round, you'd think he'd gotten his azz beat....o wait, it's the same exact scene from 4 different angles looped over and over, the only time the chinese fighter did anything in the whole round.

site keeps going down for the other fights...
wanna see the one the thais won, musta beat that guy nearly comatose if the other fights are any indication....
"oh, the chinese fighter is tired? have the ref call a 20second break",
"oh, the chinese fighter is injured? have the ref stand in front of the thia",
"oh, the thai fighter is being pushed through the ropes? let's let the chinese fighter throw a few more shots for good measure"
"oh, the round is over? let's let the chinese fighter keep swinging"
"oh, the chinese fighter didn't do anything but miss flicky shots & get his azz beat? let's give him the decision anyway"

what a joke

[goju]

well of course no one fought out of a horse stance those are used to train in forms not to fight lol