What do you think?

[t_niehoff]

I will agree but also add that another side of the problem is when "sport/gym fighters" overlook real life experience when it does not fit into their viewpoint or methodology.

This simply isn't true. Experience is paramount to them. However, they realize that experience against scrubs, or being able to pull something off against a drunk, doesn't prove anything. And that's the trouble with the "street" guys -- they are able to pull something off "on the street", and jump to the conclusion that it is good.

The sport mentality is if it is good, if it will give them an edge in beating their opponent, they want it.

No one has the whole puzzle or pie and each is welcome to train as they see fit. The PROBLEM starts when we start to put down those we do not agree with.

You say something like "no one has the whole puzzle" -- but that is meaningless. That's not what it is about. That's like saying no one in basketball has "the whole puzzle of basketball." There is no puzzle to paraphrase Neo.

Nor is it about put-downs. To say that a certain way of training produces poor results and point to the evidence of that isn't a put down -- it is a valid criticism. Should we not talk about such things because people have emotional investment in their lineage or sifu or training?

Shoot, there are some people who you could hit, cut or even shoot and they would still kill you. I wonder where they train for that

I still believe that ones mental attitude is paramount to survival in real life encounters.

There is no doubt that attitude is ONE factor among many. But you can have the "best" attitude in the world, and if you have no conditioning or skills, you're f##ked.

Just my opinion.........does not mean I am right.......but then again does not mean I am wrong either

In a world where all opinions have equal merit, that might be true.

[bennyvt]

i have no problem with saying that the gracies changed ma. I used sukuraba as an example as the fight between him and carlos newton changed how i looked at grappling.

[t_niehoff]

I'm sure you can look for it. There are also many offshoots of Daito Ryu, including Aikido (especially Yoshinkan), Roppokai, and Danzan Ryu. Even one of Kano's top students, Saigo Shiro, was well versed in Daito Ryu, and many Daito Ryu teachings were incorporated in Judo. Of course, Judo is the predecessor of BJJ.

You can look for them until the cows come home and you won't find any.

Lots of kano's top guys were well-versed in traiditional jiujitsu methods -- that doesn't lend any support to those methods having much practical value.

[t_niehoff]

There you go assuming again. You say WCK doesn't do this or that without knowing how individual schools train. I know how our school trains. And I know there or some other WCK schools that train hard like we do. So don't speak for WCK. You talk about training to do the actual event. Until you compete with against someone outside of your comfort zone, I mean fighting with some body who wants to take your head off, your comments mean very little to me.

I am not assuming anything. I'm sure there are some WCK "schools" that cross-train as a matter of course (I know of some). But that simply isn't the traditional manner of training, Phil.

The actual training you do should BE the actual event. In boxing you spar just like you will box in the ring -- so you are actually practicing doing the target skill itself. Same in wrestling, judo, BJJ, etc. Do you see a similarity? All functional (sport) arts use that same training model.

The simple truth is: If you are NOT already doing it (in practice), you won't be able to do it (on the street or in the cage or in the ring). If you want to be able to deal with someone really trying to knock your head off, then you had better be practicing with someone really trying to knock your head off.

[t_niehoff]

Clueless again. Just because some boxers and most MMA fighters don't block/parry but simply trade punches doesn't mean everyone does. I can show you better than I can tell you.

They don't block because they KNOW from sparring/fighting with other good fighters the inherent weaknesses in blocking.

If you want to show me, then go spar with some decent boxers or MMA fighters -- guys who know the wekness of blocking -- and have them try to really pound you (knock you out) and try your blocking. If you do this kind of training, then you see. If you don't do this kind of training it is easy to fool yourself.

BTW, boxers and MMA fighters don't want to "trade punches" anymore than we do. But they realize from good experience that when you reach for punches (to block) -- and by reach, I mean your hands leave cover -- that you are exposing yourself. That's why they cover, evade, catch, etc. and rarely block.

[Frost]

i have no problem with saying that the gracies changed ma. I used sukuraba as an example as the fight between him and carlos newton changed how i looked at grappling.

sorry i took

but they whole everything uses bjj on the ground or its the best is dumb. . .

to mean you thought all ground fighting styles had equal merit, i agree that their is merit in all grappling styles, including sambo and shoot, but they were not created equally and that to be sucessful in todays MMA world you need to train/cross train more in BJJ (GI or no GI) than you need to train in sambo or shoot (unless you are a freak like Fedor or Sak in which case do as you like)

[HumbleWCGuy]

They don't block because they KNOW from sparring/fighting with other good fighters the inherent weaknesses in blocking.

If you want to show me, then go spar with some decent boxers or MMA fighters -- guys who know the wekness of blocking -- and have them try to really pound you (knock you out) and try your blocking. If you do this kind of training, then you see. If you don't do this kind of training it is easy to fool yourself.

BTW, boxers and MMA fighters don't want to "trade punches" anymore than we do. But they realize from good experience that when you reach for punches (to block) -- and by reach, I mean your hands leave cover -- that you are exposing yourself. That's why they cover, evade, catch, etc. and rarely block.

When did reaching become a necessary component of a block? Covers are blocks. When was evasion excluded from WC? Phil's students are putting his teachings to work in the ring and relying on his experiences in the ring, war, and the street. It doesn't get more real than that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have watched a lot of Phil's videos, I can't say that I would do everything his way, but it would be hard to suggest that he needs to make wholesale revisions to his brand of WCK.

[YungChun]

There are low % moves and high % moves..

If you can regularly get off perfect long bridge parries with simultaneous counter hits against other folks/fighters/opponents then more power to you--most can't..!

Folks can maximize the % of moves by selecting a few and working them over and over and over again and under pressure, and in sparring.

WCK has a lot of moves in it.. Just because you don't see move X being used very often it doesn't mean that move doesn't have a home somewhere. It just may be the case that someone hasn't developed it enough or there was no cause to use it.

If you see a WCK guy attack his opponent, use the line, use the angles, and use the general concepts you ARE seeing WCK.. There is no minimum technique requirement for combat.. The ideal could well be two strikes to the right part of the head and he's done..

Someone had asked why no blocks and just mainly attack.. In my experience, if you are not attacking, you are not fighting.. Even as a counter fighter or defensive fighter, they will not block but counter ATTACK.

In my limited fighting experience I have found the system very useful, but I rarely found myself blocking. I have found WCK most useful when attacking and from a very close range position..

There are also lots of other, what is called "Habitual Acts of Violence" as has been termed.. These are common human attacks, not UFC attacks.. And WCK and other systems no doubt have these things in mind as well built into the training--not everyone is a boxer, BJJ fighter, etc..

The system offers a varied attribute set that can be applied under different kinds of situations. A good deal of that IMO is how to attack in close and to keep that attack going despite close range resistance, not so much about outside blocks/parries..

[t_niehoff]

When did reaching become a necessary component of a block? Covers are blocks. When was evasion excluded from WC? Phil's students are putting his teachings to work in the ring and relying on his experiences in the ring, war, and the street. It doesn't get more real than that.

Covering isn't blocking. Shooting out a bil sao to deal with a hook (blocking), for example, is reaching not covering (where you keep your hand glued to your head).

I didn't say evasion is excluded from WCK.

In an earlier post, I said to Phil:

And it has nothing to do with me or my abilities or my understanding. It has to do with how YOU train or don't train. If you do realistic (alive) training (which is at its core realistic sparring) ,AND you do that training with good, proven fighters, you will see what I am saying is true. It's not how good you are or how great your understanding, just how training in a certain way exposes you to reality -- and that if you don't train that way, it is very, very easy to fool yourself.

And that's the essence of it. That type of training shows you what works and what doesn't work. It's not a matter of how good you are or your understanding -- you see it working or you don't. So,

1. Are you or your your students really doing these things in fighting consistently?

And,

2. Against people with some proven, solid skills?

You say Phil's guys are putting his teachings to work in the ring. Really? Phil teaches hitting pressure points with the fingers. Are his students putting THAT to work in the ring? No. Because THAT won't work. Are his students fighting with skilled people like boxers and MMA fighters and using blocking? No. Because THAT won't work (well, you may be able to block but it will only set you up).

You see, this is my point and what I began the thread with -- If you're not teaching and practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting against people with solid skills, then you are teaching people to fail.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You say Phil's guys are putting his teachings to work in the ring. Really? Phil teaches hitting pressure points with the fingers.

We will have to agree to disagree about your definition of what constitutes a block. However, regarding Phil, I stand corrected.

[Frost]

You see, this is my point and what I began the thread with -- If you're not teaching and practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting against people with solid skills, then you are teaching people to fail.

on a side note how the f*ck has a thread started with this simple (and i would argue sensible comment) get to over 50 pages

[HumbleWCGuy]

on a side note how the f*ck has a thread started with this simple (and i would argue sensible comment) get to over 50 pages

Some of me trying to temper Niehoff's opinion's with my street fighting and bouncing experience, and the rest was mostly just people trolling each other.

[t_niehoff]

We will have to agree to disagree about your definition of what constitutes a block. However, regarding Phil, I stand corrected.

I know where you are coming from -- a lot of people use block, cover, parry, etc. interchangably. The real issue for me has to do with reaching, that is moving your hand away from your body or head to block/stop an incoming strike. That's a basic no-no on the outside. When you do that, you uncover and expose yourself. If you spend time with good boxers or good MMA people you will quickly see why that is a no-no, that it only sets you up to either eat a punch or get taken down.

[Frost]

Some of me trying to temper Niehoff's opinion's with my street fighting and bouncing experience, and the rest was mostly just people trolling each other.

I think we can probably all agree (although this being a forum part of me expects some people to argue anyway lol) that tricks and low percentage stuff works some of the time, but it is best to spend the majority of your time training high percentage stuff that you know works against good people... and the best place to see what works (outside of getting into allot of street fights and against opponents of questionable skill) is sparring/fighting good competition, and training with people who compete regularly