Traditonal Versus Progressive Arts

[Frost]

The thread has wandered off into personal squabbling and has little to do with wing chun.

FWIW-IMO(not debating) traditional v progressive---need not be a dichotomy...if you are in a good system---
progression is endless- if one is learning oriented.

joy chaudhuri

and how do we know we are in a good system, how do we judge if something is authentic/good? what criteria should we use ?

[Hardwork108]

The thread has wandered off into personal squabbling and has little to do with wing chun.

FWIW-IMO(not debating) traditional v progressive---need not be a dichotomy...if you are in a good system---
progression is endless- if one is learning oriented.

joy chaudhuri

That is the universal truth that seems to have been missed by a lot of people here who may think that you can only be "progressive" if you "modernize" or cross train in "Modern" MA your training.

These people have missed the inbuilt scope for eternal progression inside the major TCMA styles which include the spiritual, as well as the physical.

[SAAMAG]

What people have said that you cannot be progressive within the confines of a traditional system? I must have missed that part--but it is a long thread. From what I read, most people are just saying that there are other methods that have been proven to give better results than others, and are asking for others who say otherwise to in some way verbally elaborate logically on their claims to the contrary. Plain and simple.

The only reason this sort of conversation degrades into a tit for tat argument is because certain people are retards who can't have an adult conversation and get frustrated when they can't rebuttal anything any longer with any logic. They learn words from the internet and repeat them over and over again in an attempt to make other people think that they have some ounce of worth in what they say. Unfortunately they do draw in others who just can't help but call them out on their stupidy, but since the retards can't let it go there are now 800 posts of crap.

[Hardwork108]

What people have said that you cannot be progressive within the confines of a traditional system? I must have missed that part--but it is a long thread. From what I read, most people are just saying that there are other methods that have been proven to give better results than others, and are asking for others who say otherwise to in some way verbally elaborate logically on their claims to the contrary. Plain and simple.

The only reason this sort of conversation degrades into a tit for tat argument is because certain people are retards who can't have an adult conversation and get frustrated when they can't rebuttal anything any longer with any logic. They learn words from the internet and repeat them over and over again in an attempt to make other people think that they have some ounce of worth in what they say. Unfortunately they do draw in others who just can't help but call them out on their stupidy, but since the retards can't let it go there are now 800 posts of crap.

If you keep being self critical like above, then you may one day evolve enough to understand the deeper aspects of the TCMAs......

[Northwind]

....
joy chaudhuri

Wow - good to see you here Joy!

[Dragonzbane76]

then you may one day evolve enough to understand the deeper aspects of the TCMAs......

wow didn't see that dead horse coming from left field.....

[Frost]

Simple. Most of the time I judge the teachers' authenticity by the stupid and clueless remarks (for example, implying that you need to know modern weight lifting methodology to be good at kung fu ) made by their students in forum' s such as this one.

Of course, one must cross reference sometimes as it is not always the teacher's fault if their students have low attention spans and they are not dedicated or even if they are not just intellectually ready to comprehend the scope of an authentic TCMA curriculum.

actually my point was don't make comments about something you know nothing about as it makes you look silly, i was talking about weight training but it could equally be combat sports or authentic TCMA when talking to you

you seem to be under the impression that your insults can somehow upset people, you do know that the majority of people that have actually trained for a long time in a traditional art sort of pity you? you are so desperate to convince people you are authentic yet anyone with any real training sees through you

as for sort attention spans LAMO this coming from someone who can't even spend enough time in one art to compete it before drifting off on another direction searching for his elusive authentic master

[Frost]

If you keep being self critical like above, then you may one day evolve enough to understand the deeper aspects of the TCMAs......

and if you train long enough in one style without getting kicked out you might too

[Vajramusti]

Wow - good to see you here Joy!

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Good to see you too!!!


joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

and how do we know we are in a good system, how do we judge if something is authentic/good? what criteria should we use ?

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It depends on the individual's level of curiosity, research, analysis, visiting different styles and teachers, having a sense for the personal goal- and then getting the best instruction one can find,
practicing, applying, learning something new all the time in the art- and not settling for labels, marketing, cultism or propaganda. The same art may not be for all- quality control can vary. availability can vary, quality control in art can vary among other details.


joy chaudhuri.
PS. I picked my art because among other things-it has short hand and long hand, leg work footwork, elbows,versatility,it is good for self defense and health and self development, the shelf life of skill development is longer,
it trains the individual rather than having a bag of fixed techniques, it can adapt to different ranges and platforms and locations, found a great teacher and I am comfortable with it.
joy chaudhuri

[SAAMAG]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It depends on the individual's level of curiosity, research, analysis, visiting different styles and teachers, having a sense for the personal goal- and then getting the best instruction one can find,
practicing, applying, learning something new all the time in the art- and not settling for labels, marketing, cultism or propaganda. The same art may not be for all- quality control can vary. availability can vary, quality control in art can vary among other details.


joy chaudhuri.

So in other words...based on what the individual's goals are in taking up the training, the criteria to be used will vary. Makes sense. Some people like the esoteric stuff more, some like doing standing arts, some like the cultural nuances of particular arts, some look for bottom line effectiveness, some want to be a cage fighter, and some just do it because they like it and the people they train with.

Nothing wrong with that.

[Hardwork108]

actually my point was don't make comments about something you know nothing about as it makes you look silly,

Sillier than implying that Olympic weight training methods should be recommended for Internal TCMA practice? LOL

I train TCMAs so I know more about them than any of you MMA Olympic weight training, "emotionally stable" types...LOL

i was talking about weight training but it could equally be combat sports or authentic TCMA when talking to you

Don't tell me that you are as clueless about Olympic weight training and MMA as you are about TCMAs...LOL

you seem to be under the impression that your insults can somehow upset people,

I only speak the truth. You and your fellow MMA-ist Cross trainers take it as an "insult" because you are insecure and perhaps deep inside you are aware that you are Jack of All Trades and lack necessary knowledge and references when it comes to criticizing valid TCMA methodologies.

I hope things are clearer for you now.

you do know that the majority of people that have actually trained for a long time in a traditional art sort of pity you?

The "majority of " people here are no different than the majority of "kung fu-ists" in the real world. They are Mcdojo fodder, so at least when it comes to authentic kung fu training they (you?) should pity themselves.....

you are so desperate to convince people you are authentic

I am not desperate to convince the MMA-ists of anything as it would be impossible to convince them (including you!) that I practice kung fu authentically.

The reason is that you would have no way of recognizing any authentic methodologies because you have never practiced authentic TCMAs and therefore you have no valid point of reference.

Very simple if you think about it.

My point has always been that before you guys attempt to "improve" Wing Chun or any other kung fu style, by recommending Olympic weight training; Muay Thai practice; BJJ practice etc. you should have built solid multidimensional understanding of the TCMA methodologies that you so desperately seek to modify. The fact is none of you lot have the tiniest of clues. That means that you should watch your mouths, so to speak.....

yet anyone with any real training sees through you

Yes, apparently this forum that is full of cross trainers and MMA-ists, is filled with people with real kung fu training...LOL.

For some reason the world wide Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenon that effects the TCMAs, does not apply to this forum and its Tae Kwon Do and BJJ experts' "knowledge" of kung fu....LOL

as for sort attention spans LAMO this coming from someone who can't even spend enough time in one art to compete it before drifting off on another direction searching for his elusive authentic master

I have already explained to you that I had to move countries but you keep on with your deceitful remarks.

However, do continue with your lies as they show your desperation......

[Hardwork108]

So in other words...based on what the individual's goals are in taking up the training, the criteria to be used will vary. Makes sense. Some people like the esoteric stuff more, some like doing standing arts, some like the cultural nuances of particular arts, some look for bottom line effectiveness, some want to be a cage fighter, and some just do it because they like it and the people they train with.

You forgot that some people also do it because they want "emotional stability"....LOL

Nothing wrong with that.

Absolutely not!

[Frost]

Sillier than implying that Olympic weight training methods should be recommended for Internal TCMA practice? LOL.

Please tell me where i said anything about recomending OL lifting for internal practise? i never mentioned internal once in any of my posts to you...i did say modern methods of lifting can help train force development and explosivness as well as any methods .... nor did i mention chow gar for that matter but feel free to prove me wrong with a single quote

QUOTE=Hardwork108;991530
I train TCMAs so I know more about them than any of you MMA Olympic weight training, "emotionally stable" types...LOL

[/QUOTE]

nope you style hop and try to pretend you and only you train TCMA, i trained tcma directly under a master recognised by the hakka community in the UK as authentic, i completed all the system under him bar a few weapons forms before moving on. Which means a learned all that styles empty handed forms, all the ging training, body conditionng, meditation methods etc. I was also being trained to drum for the lion dance team and do the unicorn dance, so i know what is and is not authentic

QUOTE=Hardwork108;991530
Don't tell me that you are as clueless about Olympic weight training and MMA as you are about TCMAs...LOL......

[/QUOTE]

There is only one person here clueless about the above and its not me i train MMA with a guy who got 7 fighters ready for the UFC events over here last year so i have a good frame of reference to talk about MMA and sports training, whats your frame of reference again?.... oh thats right you don't have one

QUOTE=Hardwork108;991530
I only speak the truth. You and your fellow MMA-ist Cross trainers take it as an "insult" because you are insecure and perhaps deep inside you are aware that you are Jack of All Trades and lack necessary knowledge and references when it comes to criticizing valid TCMA methodologies.

I hope things are clearer for you now.
......

[/QUOTE]
we are jack of all trades hey, lets see those that you insult have actually completed systems, some under very well known masters, you are the one style hoping here mate not us

QUOTE=Hardwork108;991530
The "majority of " people here are no different than the majority of "kung fu-ists" in the real world. They are Mcdojo fodder, so at least when it comes to authentic kung fu training they (you?) should pity themselves...........

[/QUOTE]

When you find yourself disagreeing with almost everyone who has ever actually trained TCMA you might ant to stop and look deep within yourself... the problem might be with you and your lack of authentic training and not with them

QUOTE=Hardwork108;991530
I am not desperate to convince the MMA-ists of anything as it would be impossible to convince them (including you!) that I practice kung fu authentically. ......

[/QUOTE]

Its easy to convince us, tell us who you trained with and for how long, i am sure that between us we know enough masters t find someone to back up your story...how about it?

QUOTE=Hardwork108;991530
The reason is that you would have no way of recognizing any authentic methodologies because you have never practiced authentic TCMAs and therefore you have no valid point of reference. ......

[/QUOTE]

According to you, as i said list your masters and ill list mine, not those you have trained with via a third party but those masters you have directly had access to for years, and i'll do the same....how about it?

QUOTE=Hardwork108;991530
My point has always been that before you guys attempt to "improve" Wing Chun or any other kung fu style, by recommending Olympic weight training; Muay Thai practice; BJJ practice etc. you should have built solid multidimensional understanding of the TCMA methodologies that you so desperately seek to modify. The fact is none of you lot have the tiniest of clues. That means that you should watch your mouths, so to speak.....
......

[/QUOTE]
And as i said you should probably takecare as to who you are talking about, you are the one with no listed background in TCMA, its you who seem to be a jack of all here not the people you insult all the time

QUOTE=Hardwork108;991530
Yes, apparently this forum that is full of cross trainers and MMA-ists, is filled with people with real kung fu training...LOL.

For some reason the world wide Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenon that effects the TCMAs, does not apply to this forum and its Tae Kwon Do and BJJ experts' "knowledge" of kung fu....LOL



I have already explained to you that I had to move countries but you keep on with your deceitful remarks.

However, do continue with your lies as they show your desperation......

[/QUOTE]

What lies, that you have not finished one single system or can name one single master/authentic lineage holder you have trained with, that you have no knowledge of MMA or weightlifting yet you like to make silly ill informed remaks about both those things....am i lieing when i say these things?

[SAAMAG]

Its obvious that this guy just trolls around because he's on the computer pretty much all day and goes from one person / argument to the next. Kinda odd that someone who trains so often in traditional arts seems to have so much time available to talk on the internet.

Then again we know that he can't describe any real training or experience of any kind...be it traditional, modern, progressive, or internal for that matter. So that means he probably doesn't train at all.

It's probably good if we ALL just ignore him and not take the bait that he leaves anymore. Since he's an attention seeker, the only way to be rid of him is to deprive him of his desire...attention.