Shaolin diet, vegetarianism and stuff

[Syn7]

There's no such thing as karma. That's just a nice idea to make victims think they'll get some type of revenge eventually. Karma is contradictory to the idea of truth in that respect and therefore it is likely it doesn't exist.

The butcher kills and sells the meat. Karma has nothing to do with it.

On another level, I agree with you that we are not caretakers of this planet, we are but one more mammal that consumes it along with the rest. Although we do seem to be a lot less responsible in our consumption than other animals.

When we stepped off the natural path and set out to consciously change our environment, we became responsible for those changes. Knowing better makes it even worse. It's just basic accountability. The only animal that even somewhat compares to what we do on the whole changing our ecosystem are beavers.

[Kellen Bassette]

@ Matthew

I kind of got hustled off the computer without finishing my long winded thought...

The thing that really bothers me is when "scientific" arguments are spun or misrepresented in a way to make it sound like we're doing this to save the planet.

I'll give an example that may not directly apply to vegetarians, but it draws several parallels and often goes and in hand.

Take the organic foods group. They want naturally grown, locally farmed foods. That's all good, I'm for that too, where possible. Healthier? Sure, I think so. Better for local economies? Of course.
The problem comes when someone says let's do this to save the environment from fertilizers and pesticides. I don't like those things any more than anyone else and they need to be done as responsibly as possible...but....if we were to all go organic we wouldn't be able to produce enough food to feed the population. We need those modern, scientific farming methods to make bigger fruits, larger yields, lower crop losses ect.
If we all went organic overnight it would result in mass starvation and the inevitable human reaction of trying to save ourselves by wreaking mass destruction on the environment.

The biggest thing I hear about as an environmental concern from the vegans is the havoc wrought by the beef industry. My first problem is many vegans will try to lump all meat industries into the same box as the beef industry.

There is certainly negative impacts on the environment from every human industry, but chicken farming or fish farming isn't the large scale destroyer of rain forests that beef farming is. Let's be realistic. Agriculture is far and wide the number one cause of deforestation and loss of bio diversity. Urbanization and cattle farming have nothing on agriculture, but we got to eat something, right?

So let's look at beef. The number one concern is the clearing of forest land for raising cattle. Number 2, I suppose, would be the absurd amount of farm land, that could have gone to producing foods for humans, now going to grow feed for the cattle. More wasted land. Number 3, cow ****s making green house gases.

I'll give you 1 and 2. The beef industry is wasteful and hurtful to the environment in ways that other meat industries aren't.

Can't give you number 3. Before the world population explosion and industrialization that paved the way for the rise of beef, we had the buffalo. So numerous were the buffalo they created the Great Plains. Beef can't touch the buffalo in deforestation; and it would seem logical that the cow ****ing hasn't done anything the buffalo ****ing wouldn't have done.

So why not push for reforms in the beef industry or get more meat eaters to eat eggs, chicken or fish if it's truly an environmental concern? If it's a cruelty issue about chickens stuffed in little cages in factory farms, then why can't we enjoy a small farm or free range chicken?

It always comes down to eating meat is wrong. Using any animal product is cruel. This is a belief. It's not scientific. It's certainly not natural. It's a personal religion. I find it so strange that people resist this so strongly. Religion has such a negative connotation to it that people go to such great lengths to hide behind pseudo/science instead of just saying, "this is how I feel," or "what I believe."

[GeneChing]

I was ruminating over karma in response to this thread. To me, it's a lot like qi, an Asian heuristic concept that doesn't translate very well. There are all sorts of semantic simplifications that can be applied to either term, but none really do them justice.

Anyway, by odd coincidence, I caught Food, Inc. last night on PBS. If you're going to discuss the modern diet, especially in America, here's something worth engaging. It's very karmic.

[rett]

Linguistically karma just means "action".

Karmaphala = action + fruit (consequences)

So what the doctrine of karma is actually about is the idea that actions have consequences. In particular, by carrying out an intentional action we leave traces in our minds that will follow us around haunting us, in good or bad ways.

These traces can cause illness, accidents, freudian slips, cause us to get into unnecessary conflicts... basically any way the mind can impact our lives, bad karma can reach out and touch us.

But worst of all they can lead to mental obstructions that make it hard to practice towards freedom. That's the reason for precepts. To create good mental conditions for practice.

To me it's really obvious that this is true. I can see why modern people are sceptical about the idea of rebirth and its taking a form caused by one's actions (heck even many ancient Indians were sceptical about that).

But in Buddhism doctrinal ideas are really about one thing and one thing only: reducing and ultimately ending suffering. So Buddhism is taught in terms that listeners can relate to. That's why doctrines change in different times and places. Most of it is just a raft to be cast off after reaching the other shore. That's my intellectual understanding from what I've read.

Many modern people tend to have a materialistic and nihilisitic attitude. It can be good for them to reflect on the fact that actions have consequences. Or on the amazingness of conscious awareness.

[Matthew]

I have never seen anyone "proselytize" about eating meat on any platform if not in response to the proselytization of overzealous vegans/vegetarians telling them they shouldn't eat meat.

Meat eaters don't have to proselytize...

They have advertisers that do it for them - come on now, all those fast food burger ads? Can't throw a soybean without seeing one.

Thought this was appropriate given the topic of advertising in favor of meat.

It's okay though - they (Red Robin) have a plant based option - "in case your teenage daughter is going through a phase"

http://www.businessinsider.com/red-r...rger-ad-2013-6

[bawang]

if you don't eat meat, you disobey king jinnaluo. you are not real shaolin.

[Matthew]

if you don't eat meat, you disobey king jinnaluo. you are not real shaolin.

Thank you for the support bawang. I agree that Shaolin temple is Buddhist first, and whose canon is against eating meat too.

Funny quote from a entertainer/comedian:

The propaganda from the animal abusers is enourmous!
I mean, when was the last time you turned on TV and saw a commercial for Shiitake mushrooms?

People singing, and dancing down the streets, having a good time eating mushrooms..
How about.. alfalfa sprouts?
Quinoa?
Radishes?
Raspberries?
Tofu?

You don't see that stuff advertised on TV.
What do you see instead?
HAVE some more meat! Have some more cheese! Have some more cheese on your meat! Meat, Cheese, double cheese, extra cheese! And how about some more cheese with your meat?

Which reminds me, the main Shaolin temple's cafeteria serves some pretty fancy dishes (sorry bawang, all plants IIRC!)

[bawang]

Thank you for the support bawang. I agree that Shaolin temple is Buddhist first, and whose canon is against eating meat too.

shaolin monks are commanded by king jinnaluo to eat meat. you are fake shaolin.

[Kymus]

shaolin monks are commanded by king jinnaluo to eat meat. you are fake shaolin.

Shi Dejian doesn't eat meat...........

[rett]

Shi Dejian doesn't eat meat...........

Bawang knows better than Shi Dejian what Shaolin is.

[bawang]

Shi Dejian doesn't eat meat...........

u think shaolin jinnaluo cult is a joke?

[wenshu]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/29/he...ging.html?_r=0

[Kymus]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/29/he...ging.html?_r=0

http://chriskresser.com/b12-deficien...s-consequences

[Kymus]

u think shaolin jinnaluo cult is a joke?

[Matthew]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/29/he...ging.html?_r=0

Yes but the majority of B12 in animals people eat is synthesized and injected anyway. So much for the appeal to 'nature'

Presentation: Are we designed to eat meat?

List of cholesterol in foods

Presentation: America's 15 leading causes of death (and how many are easily prevented, reduced/alleviated, and even cured through a plant-based diet)