Wing Chun Chi Sao International Open 2008 Results

[chusauli]

I find that there is a lack of audience participation.
Allowing the audience to get involved, perhaps by throwing chairs and assorted beverages or maybe allowing audience member to run in and groin kick someone.
That is much more realistic and in line with the goal of Wing Chun which is, as we all know, beating up homeless people.

LOL! Yes, we should also involve body fluids of various kinds!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Indeed, I recall at one training session we were dealing with unholstering the gun or drawing the tactical folder under "deres", the "defender" would be bombadred with ounches and kicks from his opponent or by padded sticks as he would try to draw his weapon.
It was an eye opener for many.

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL! Yes, we should also involve body fluids of various kinds!

Well, it is "sticky hands" after all.

[duende]

Also there exists a phenomena in some where they inherently can not shoot another human being, and always flinch or shoot off target. Like it or not, their subconscious takes over and systematically ruins the targeting of the shot. Often without the shooter even being aware or it.


As for the rules. Thanks for posting the final list. I was not aware of Victor's recommendations of touch strikes to the head being implemented. Therefore allowing presses and other engagements to the head as well which I felt where very necessary.

[HardWork8]

HW8 - there was more input than just Robert Chu and Alan Orr, there was input from other UK Wing Chun organisations.

I was under the impression that this type of tournament was devised by the Chusauli organization.

I think that Terence has got to the core of his issue with chi sau with the "flowery hands" comment.

The way I have been taught chi sao was to look for weakness, gap etc. and then attack/step in and take the space. The degree of contact is determined by the level of the exponents' experience or expertise. We don't wear gloves and body contact can be very hard. Face contact is with open hands.

People who stay in that "multi-move", multi-beats per action chi sau then it would totally break down if they tried to carry it through to fighting.

I was taught to keep things simple.

We should be striving to strip it down to what can realistically work, and the experience of those who fight can inform us as to what works and what does not.

I think that a point is being missed here. Chi sao practice includes other elements that if stripped will result in a loss of essence. What I am talking about and something that is quite often over looked in our times of modern "knuckle head martial arts" is the SENSITIVITY TRAINING.

Sensitivity training is an ongoing process and chi sao happens to be a tool or a method. It is not just fighting training.

In our school however, chis sao practice ultimately leads to sparring as the student gains sufficient conditioning,understanding, experience and SENSITIVITY.
And this sparring is not chi sao anymore, but there will be elements of it present such as bridging and sensitivity/listening in a more realistic and direct scenario.

To conclude, Terence generalizes too much about subjects in which he has at best a limited knowledge. There is a fighting aspect to chi sao and as the tournament demonstrated, this particular aspect is valid.

However Chi sao is a training tool and not just in Wing Chun but other kung fu styles as well, and works in many levels.

[Edmund]

---Good points. But again, as has been pointed out on several occasions, the purpose of the training method is to develop the range at which the system concentrates or excels. Judo Randori develops the standing grapple where Judo excels. Chi Sao develops the contact bridging at which Wing Chun excels. They are developmental training exercises, not ends in themselves. So how is Judo Randori then any more "realistic" and "useful" than Wing Chun Chi Sao?

Well hang on. On the other thread, you were saying that Judo randori was bad for developing fighting skills.

I think both you and Terence are flip flopping all over the place.

Something I expect from Terence (He's gone from "Cross training and Sparring is all bad. Forms and Chi sao = Awesome fighter" to "Forms suck! Sparring only!") but not you Keith!

Could we have this Keith over at the other thread?

[Edmund]

Aikido.

It has randori too. But aikido practitioners don't develop the realistic skills (functional skills) that judoka do. Why? Because they are not facing good opponents that behave realistically, but face people who by training behave in unrealsitic ways, in ways that don't correspond to fighting. So they never develop the skill to deal with people that behave in realsitic ways -- they develop great skill at handling people who behave in their own particular unrealsitc way.

Aikido doesn't really randori. That's a horrible example.
It's not competitive. One guy has a knife and tries to stab the other guy who has to dodge and throw them. It's a complete balls-up.

The other "randori" is when guys rush one guy and he can do an improvised demo throw on whoever gets close first.

To call this the same concept as chi sao is rubbish.

[JPinAZ]

As for the rules. Thanks for posting the final list. I was not aware of Victor's recommendations of touch strikes to the head being implemented. Therefore allowing presses and other engagements to the head as well which I felt where very necessary.

Just light touches to the head is still a tough call IMO. From watching the videos, it seemed at times that people would abandon the upper gate to throw hooks to the body with both hands (little-to-no bridge control). I am guessing that if strikes to the head were allowed, this wouldn't be happening as often. But the tough part is safety.
Obviously, it's a double edged sword. Allow head shots, you won't get the sometimes reckless abandon of the upper gate to throw body shots. But, you risk far more serious injuries.

My input would be once the face contact is made lightly, and the head is moved, the fight should stop, a point awarded and reset. An example would be, if one participant can push someone's head back by getting under the chin, controlling the neck, etc, that could be considered a 'strike' if full energy had been allowed that would halt a lot of the body shots from happening after.

[JPinAZ]

...it seems you got my message. Great! I don't want anything to do with you, HFY, or anything assoicated with HFY. And it seems you feel the same way about me, as I'm a "waste of time." Then stay away from me, leave me alone, and I'll stay away from you people.

I didn't 'get' anything you said... And, I don't generally make 'deals' with bigmouths like you.

But, to try to keep the forums civil, lets do this: If I don't agree with you, or you don't agree with me, let's keep it between us. We can still disagree without attacking each other's lineage (as you have done repeatedly here). All this nonsense of 'you guys', 'cult this', 'ancestor that' you keep babbling about is childish and idiotic. Perfect ways of running from a discussion.

If you'd like, I could start up about your sifu, etc, etc, but we know how that goes and I'm above that. And I'm sure everyone is tired of that type of thing. What does it accomplish anyway? nothing. But if you think it's a good road to travel down, go ahead.

You don't want any problems, keep the discussion between us. You want real problems, keep it up....

fair enough?

[Edmund]

Here's the rules, what would you change?

Not much!

If anything the rule where the "referee starts the round after 3 rolls".

It's a bit of a choreographed start routine of 3 rolls that doesn't make any difference to the match as far as I can see. A lay person in the audience is going to find it weird. The competitors have to cooperate to make it happen.

How about the ref just makes sure they are in a good start position and says "go"?
The competitors then act or react however they like.

[Edmund]

Just light touches to the head is still a tough call IMO. From watching the videos, it seemed at times that people would abandon the upper gate to throw hooks to the body with both hands (little-to-no bridge control).

Well the rules state: You can kick from distance if roll breaks, but you can only punch with bridge contact.

If someone was getting tapped on the head and they responded by hooking to the body, it would already be against the rules.

But if the defender is just hugging their arms tight to their body (which I spotted a bit), it's a form of passivity because it's avoiding bridge contact. It's exploiting the rule but going against the spirit of the comp. The attacker can't go out of their way to maintain contact just so they can punch.

I am guessing that if strikes to the head were allowed, this wouldn't be happening as often. But the tough part is safety.

Obviously, it's a double edged sword. Allow head shots, you won't get the sometimes reckless abandon of the upper gate to throw body shots. But, you risk far more serious injuries.

Yes. It's very double edged. And your head can take a lot less punishment than your body generally can (provided you aren't hit in the groin or something).

My input would be once the face contact is made lightly, and the head is moved, the fight should stop, a point awarded and reset. An example would be, if one participant can push someone's head back by getting under the chin, controlling the neck, etc, that could be considered a 'strike' if full energy had been allowed that would halt a lot of the body shots from happening after.

Perhaps, to add a bit stronger criteria to that idea, if they just pushed the opponent completely away in that instance, the already existing "punching with a bridge" rule would come into effect after that and the opponent would not be able to just throw body shots. (Pushing is allowed)

It would also get a reset and demonstrate a powerful push against a vulnerable target.

So the current rules seem to cover your idea of halting those kyokushin-style body shots (where guys are just smashing each other in the body with their heads exposed). It's whether the competitors understand the rules and what they are allowed to do to counter the body shots.

[KPM]

Well hang on. On the other thread, you were saying that Judo randori was bad for developing fighting skills.

I think both you and Terence are flip flopping all over the place.

Something I expect from Terence (He's gone from "Cross training and Sparring is all bad. Forms and Chi sao = Awesome fighter" to "Forms suck! Sparring only!") but not you Keith!

Could we have this Keith over at the other thread?

---You are reading me wrong. I've also responded on the other thread to try and clear things up. I never said that Judo Randori was bad for developing fighting skills. Terence brought up Judo Randori as an example of a realistic and useful training method as opposed to Wing Chun Chi Sao. I was trying to make the point that there is not that much difference between them. Both are developmental drills that serve the purpose for which they were designed. I haven't "flip flopped" on anything.

[guy b.]

You are incorrect. Judo randori corrresponds to what people do when wrestling wearing jackets. The drill is the activity. Wing chun chi sau corresponds to nothing found in actual fighting..its purpose is to instill certain reactions to pressure but there is a real danger of the drill becomming the activity for practitioners. Judo doesn't suffer from this problem, hence more people learn to do it well.

[CFT]

guy b. is right. Judo randori would translate more to Wing Chun goh/gwoh sau, i.e. free sparring. I would say that chi sau would align more with their throwing practice.


http://www.judoinfo.com/judofaq.htm

Kata: formal exercise.
Uchi komi: repetitive throwing practice.
Randori: free practice.
Shiai: contest

[monji112000]

What I am talking about and something that is quite often over looked in our times of modern "knuckle head martial arts" is the SENSITIVITY TRAINING.

Sensitivity training is an ongoing process and chi sao happens to be a tool or a method. It is not just fighting training.

In our school however, chis sao practice ultimately leads to sparring as the student gains sufficient conditioning,understanding, experience and SENSITIVITY.
And this sparring is not chi sao anymore, but there will be elements of it present such as bridging and sensitivity/listening in a more realistic and direct scenario.

To conclude, Terence generalizes too much about subjects in which he has at best a limited knowledge. There is a fighting aspect to chi sao and as the tournament demonstrated, this particular aspect is valid.

However Chi sao is a training tool and not just in Wing Chun but other kung fu styles as well, and works in many levels.

I'm lost what "knuckle head martial arts" are you talking about? MT ? JJ? wrestling? MMA? LOL
sensitivity is key in all fighting styles... thats one reason why I feel so comfortable in JJ.

JMO it seemed more like sparring matches without head shots.