Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Kellen Bassette]

In all honesty, I don't know why these people are held (by this forum) to the standard of "representing" anything. Most of them have fun doing kung fu in their spare time, do not purport to represent anything, show up to some SD-only "tournaments" to show their talents (in whatever degree that they have them), have fun, and then go home.

A bunch of *******s on the internet then tear them to shreds like they're the be-all and end-all of Shaolin-Do.

I've been to traditional CMA schools. I've seen, respectively, worse representations of Hung Gar in person within Hung Gar schools than SD's web vidoes. I just didn't videotape them, hold Hung Gar to the fire because of them, and then trash them as talentless hacks. And I've seen, in person, a fantastic Hung Gar master at a Hung Gar school, with some very talented senior students.

We've posted videos of SD masters on this thread--Sr. Master Nance, Master Reid, Master Mullins, etc. They tend to get conveniently passed over in commentary, and then a bunch of trolls rip in on some black belt student performing a form in the eighties. Honestly, some of those people in those videos in all likelihood no longer practice any martial arts whatsoever. They'd probably be flabberghasted if they were informed today that they're the standard by which SD is judged.

LOl...some of those people are someone's mom and dad, who do kung fu for exercise and don't purport to be masters. Just a little perspective for y'all.

I'm not speaking to SD here...but I share Syn's contempt with the crappy BBs. This is certainly not unique to any style. It is absolutely shameful the quality of martial artists that where a BB.

I understand not everyone has the same goals with their training, but if you can't fight, can't do a decent form, can't effectively apply your art, and haven't become a better athlete, what qualifies you to wear a black belt? In my opinion, 5 years of paying tuition shouldn't cut it.

If instructors don't have the will to deny rank to those who don't deserve it then they need to do away with their ranking systems. They won't though, because it will hurt their bottom line.

It is absolutely shameful and a disgrace to all MAs the quality of many BBs out there. It cheapens everything.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Right. Belts are a good way to organize students who come and go on strict schedules and can't spend every day in a Kwoon. That's why teachers more and more turn to them (or to sashes....same diff). They are a marker of progress of some sort or at least of experience, since most masters cannot pay the bills and turn away new students who they don't think will become masters (and few do, of course). If you guys can show me the place where a black belt is a license to kill, I'll go check it out .

I have a low rank in bjj, but I can still tap out black belts now and again, and I rarely get tapped in terms of ratios--it's usually a draw.

Like it or not, belts only mean what they mean. In sd, they mean you're a serious student, not untouchable.

[Kellen Bassette]

Right. Belts are a good way to organize students who come and go on strict schedules and can't spend every day in a Kwoon. They are a marker of progress of some sort or at least of experience. If you guys can show me the place where a black belt is a license to kill, I'll go check it out .

I have a low rank in bjj, but I can still tap out black belts now and again, and I rarely get tapped--it's usually a draw.

Like it or not, belts only mean what they mean. In sd, they mean you're a serious student, not bodhidharma.

I don't have any delusions of grandeur that a BB makes you deadly. But I think it should show a level of proficiency. I also recognize that many people treat MAs as a social club and are just there for fun. So those people don't have to wear a belt, or can stay a white belt. If you don't want to put the hard work in but enjoy coming to class, go for it...but don't dishonor your teacher, your style and the martial arts community by wearing a BB.

You shouldn't wear a badge if your not a cop, a green beret if your not one, (although I think the army ruined this??) call yourself a SEAL if you haven't done the training..I'm not saying a BB compares to this, because it doesn't anymore...but it should.

[wenshu]

We've posted videos of SD masters on this thread--Sr. Master Nance, Master Reid, Master Mullins, etc. They tend to get conveniently passed over in commentary, and then a bunch of trolls rip in on some black belt student performing a form in the eighties.

They weren't conveniently passed over, they were duly considered and summarily dismissed.

[Syn7]

In all honesty, I don't know why these people are held (by this forum) to the standard of "representing" anything. Most of them have fun doing kung fu in their spare time, do not purport to represent anything, show up to some SD-only "tournaments" to show their talents (in whatever degree that they have them), have fun, and then go home.

A bunch of *******s on the internet then tear them to shreds like they're the be-all and end-all of Shaolin-Do.

I've been to traditional CMA schools. I've seen, respectively, worse representations of Hung Gar in person within Hung Gar schools than SD's web vidoes. I just didn't videotape them, hold Hung Gar to the fire because of them, and then trash them as talentless hacks. And I've seen, in person, a fantastic Hung Gar master at a Hung Gar school, with some very talented senior students.

We've posted videos of SD masters on this thread--Sr. Master Nance, Master Reid, Master Mullins, etc. They tend to get conveniently passed over in commentary, and then a bunch of trolls rip in on some black belt student performing a form in the eighties. Honestly, some of those people in those videos in all likelihood no longer practice any martial arts whatsoever. They'd probably be flabberghasted if they were informed today that they're the standard by which SD is judged.

LOl...some of those people are someone's mom and dad, who do kung fu for exercise and don't purport to be masters. Just a little perspective for y'all.

If you actually read my comments you will see that I went in some depth as to how I felt about those videos of the teachers.

They are held by the same standard as everyone else. I expect them to have earned their rank. I'm not gonna trash a bunch of orange belt kids. But I will bash a BB that can't execute. And yes, some have been much better than others, obviously. It bothers me to see people giving away titles for so little. It's dangerous and down right irresponsible.

I wonder if that's why tcma's use the filial system instead? Who is good at what is rather obvious, and the titles are respectful of position and time invested as opposed to skill. Although often it's both simply because those who do stick around tend to excel. It's ok to be there for fun and health and not care about combat, but you shouldn't reward that with a skill rank that was not earned. EVER.

[Syn7]

Right. Belts are a good way to organize students who come and go on strict schedules and can't spend every day in a Kwoon. That's why teachers more and more turn to them (or to sashes....same diff). They are a marker of progress of some sort or at least of experience, since most masters cannot pay the bills and turn away new students who they don't think will become masters (and few do, of course). If you guys can show me the place where a black belt is a license to kill, I'll go check it out .

I have a low rank in bjj, but I can still tap out black belts now and again, and I rarely get tapped in terms of ratios--it's usually a draw.

Like it or not, belts only mean what they mean. In sd, they mean you're a serious student, not untouchable.

Umm, what?

I am yet to see anyone walk into a real BJJ school without a good amount of their own skills and not get their ass handed to them.

I was a good wrestler, they just took advantage of that. I was good at squirming and was flexible, they just took advantage of that. I was good at tumbling and breakfalls, they just took advantage of that. If you can tap BB's in any sort of regular fashion, either you are underrated or they are overrated. Seriously, ask anyone who does straight BJJ and they will tell you the same thing. The belts actually mean something. If you can't execute, you don't deserve it. A BB getting caught once or twice is inevitable. But not on any sort of regular basis? That speaks volumes. Unless I'm missing some valuable piece of info that makes it all come together, I can't see it. Nobody under a high level purple should be able to tap any new black more than the odd time when they don't give their all to defend. When I'm training with somebody smaller or less experienced, I ease up a bit all the time. I give a certain amount of resistance and let them work it out. On the other hand, whenever I really catch somebody that is way better than me, I know what's going on and why it happened and I'm not gonna get all happy about it.

[Syn7]

They weren't conveniently passed over, they were duly considered and summarily dismissed.

I didn't even dismiss them. I went into detail on more than one occasion. But then I guess I'm just a hater.

[brucereiter]

he's saying what i was too scared to say. you would think some "GOOD" SD students would post some GOOD material to outbalance the bad stuff we see. me too, i would love to see something good from SD. i love good martial arts. its sad to see black belts looking worse that white belts.

in the video of the demo in the gym, the two or three man forms, the ones not performing are just roaming around, spectating rather participating

I think I was a "good" sd student. There are several videos of me doing ima stuff I learned wile I was involved with sd
Of coarse i am not a master...

[JSE]

So you have 2 new students. One a fit, natural athlete. The other is 40 lbs overweight with a hip problem. They progress through the rank system together. Both receive bb's. The athlete does not look much better than when he started, however looks phenomenal in every thing he does. The overweight guy has lost the weight, improved tremendously, but still looks a little sloppy in his technique due to hip issues. So based on work and effort, who deserves the rank more?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Umm, what?

I am yet to see anyone walk into a real BJJ school without a good amount of their own skills and not get their ass handed to them.

I was a good wrestler, they just took advantage of that. I was good at squirming and was flexible, they just took advantage of that. I was good at tumbling and breakfalls, they just took advantage of that. If you can tap BB's in any sort of regular fashion, either you are underrated or they are overrated. Seriously, ask anyone who does straight BJJ and they will tell you the same thing. The belts actually mean something. If you can't execute, you don't deserve it. A BB getting caught once or twice is inevitable. But not on any sort of regular basis? That speaks volumes. Unless I'm missing some valuable piece of info that makes it all come together, I can't see it. Nobody under a high level purple should be able to tap any new black more than the odd time when they don't give their all to defend. When I'm training with somebody smaller or less experienced, I ease up a bit all the time. I give a certain amount of resistance and let them work it out. On the other hand, whenever I really catch somebody that is way better than me, I know what's going on and why it happened and I'm not gonna get all happy about it.

Don't fight bjj on its own terms. Use your wrestling, be careful, and don't reach for openings. I'm not talking competition here, where someone has to win. I'm talking straight rolling. If you can pull back to your feet, you should, rather than pursuing a better bb through his rolls. Its not easy, and sometimes this is where i get tapped, but i can and do escape if i dont like where a seasion on the fround is going. Too many people play by expectation, and stay committed to the ground when they don't have to.

When your opponent begins to get a little annoyed that you pull away, he'll often try to keep you grounded, and this is where most errors happen on his part.

My post did come off as too ****y though. Bb in bjj are much better than me at bjj. Also, I meant to say that I sometimes tap Black belts, but that more often than not I wind up in draws when it's not a tap (with those that I roll with---and I don't roll with only black belts).

[Old Noob]

I may not touch on everything but I'll touch on a few topics in depth



Now we are speaking the same language. What are the core principles of shaolin do? For instance the core principles in CLF are as follows

The Ten Elements
the ten elements are 10 concepts based on different types of movement. These translate into different types of strikes. the elements are kum,chuen na, gwa, sau, chop, pow, kup, biu, ding, jong

10 elements with names and chinese characters
http://youtu.be/uuTBbKucwdI

another video of ten elements with view of the leg and footwork
http://youtu.be/_hn-nR6juC4

The 5 Kicks
same as the elements but for the lower body. The kicks are dik(or dan), chang, so, chou, tan
http://youtu.be/dHpOkkG7kL4

Gate theory
Dividing the opponents body up into sections to determine which angle is best to attack with what element or kick given the circumstance.

Asterisk footwork
or bagua footwork if you want to sound esoteric. refers to 8 different directions in which you can step invasively or evasively depending on the situation.

These concepts form the basis for the entire CLF system. The physical structure and strategies employed by a CLF practitioner supports the use of these concepts. The concepts come before the forms, the forms were created to be examples of these concepts employed in different circumstances. It's the same for any system of TCMA. Hung Kuen for instance has the 12 bridges, 5 elements etc. Taichi has peng, liu, ji, an, li, tsai, shou,cao etc. mantis likewise has its own concepts.

My question was how does a system like shaolin do that is a collection of systems ,regardless of how they obtained them, combine the concepts of many systems together in a way that makes sense. The physical design of these systems are meant to support the underlying concepts. If you mix them haphazardly you may actually make the system less effecient at appying the concepts and stratagies it was originally inteneded to use.


As for CMA kick fests, that is more an issue of lack of understanding the use of the underlying concepts that causes that. It is important to develop a systematic and organized approach to teaching martial skills that reinforce the use of our respective systems. I wrote about the systematic approach at length on a blog article of mine that you can read here http://hungsingmartialarts.blogspot....on-static.html

I also made a video as an exaple of some of the progression in drilling we use. If you watch you can see the concepts listed above being implemented in the drilling and limited sparring being done in the video
http://youtu.be/bXXI9T-tGSE

I am very much against the hit or miss teaching method as well as technique overload you mentioned. My personal experience has shown that a few concepts learned well through a systematic approach will serve you better than a general overview of alot of techniques. You mentioned it took 4 or 5 years to learn how to use the takedowns you learned well. With a more systemized approach it should have taken very little time.

For instance I trained a student who had no previous martial arts experience to compete in the legends of kung fu sanda tournament in 6 months time. we drilled only the clf concepts listed above with an emphasis on invasive side step with kup (an overhand swinging punch). below is video of his 2 fights. His first opponent was a fellow clf practitioner with 11yrs experience to his 6 months in this match my student is in red headgear. The 2nd opponent I'm not sure in this match my student is in black headgear. i also want to state that he was completely gassed in the 2nd match as he had to fight the 2 matches back to back. My students lack of ring expeience shows here but even with the nerves etc that come with that you can still see the concepts listed above being applied. http://youtu.be/P7OdDjZ0a50

Wanted to bump this primarily to thank you for your attempt at real conversation. I don't have much to offer over what was said by meecer and JP but I agree that our foundations are in our short forms and sparring techniques and the repetitive drilling of those techniques finds its way into the forms that SD has from other systems, which I think, as JP said, probably affects how those forms look - its the form but the principles seem of for the style the form comes from.

One observation about the training vids you put up and I want to emphasize that I am not being critical: Your drills were excellent and I think, like meecer, that progressive drilling would be a great thing to add. But, when you started free sparring, I didn't see alot of those combinations expressed; it devolved back to one or two punches and withdrawal. Also, the stance and hand position changed dramatically (hands lowered significantly) and, at the end of the day, your light sparring looked almost identical to the light sparring we do at my school.

I have a theory for why this is. Your drills train with the head as the primary target. Not the only target but the primary one. When you move to sparring, you seem to follow the rules that most non MMA schools follow (except for Kyokoshin and a few others); medium contact to the body and none to the head. Thus all the techniques you just spent time drilling are exchanged for lowered hands and gut shots. And since you don't drill as many awesome body shots and how to punch to the body while keeping your hands up, the people free sparring never look as competent as they did in the drills. I think this is a real dilemna for the casual martial artist, whether they are karate, TKD, CMA, or whatever. If you don't spar with heavy contact and good speed, and head contact, then your application of your material is always going to be lacking when judged by someone who does train in that method. I think this is one of the big reasons MMA advocates justifiably criticize traditional MAs. On the other hand, training in a striking art with that kind of realism really kicks up the injury ratio and also shrinks the pool of your potential customers.

This is also why the grappling belts tend to mean more. Most grappling arts practice at full resistance in addition to drills from day one. It's just logical that application of techniqes trained at full resistance is going to be better.

Any way I'm rambling but thank you for your post and your willingness to have substantive conversations.

[Old Noob]

I think its true and fair criticism of SD that belts are pretty much and indicator of what your forms you've memorized. I'm not even sure that it's a indicator of the number of forms you do well. And its most definitely not an indicator of your martial prowess. Certainly, the range of skill among black belts in my school is broad and there are a couple who I would not want representing the overall quality of the school. There are others, though, that I'd put up with any other martial artist I've met.

[RJ797]

This contention that there isn’t a single skilled martial artist in SD doesn’t hold water. No video will ever be accepted as proof. Whatever is posted would be instantly criticized as willing opponents, staged, unskilled opponents, etc.

Do those of you who insist no one in SD could possibly fight have some evidence to back that up? Bruce has been all over the world and will “roll” with anyone. There may not be many people here that have worked with Bruce - but there are a lot on RSF. Does someone have a story of easily defeating him?

Mike Reid has been teaching down in Atlanta for almost 20 years. Do any of you have a story of being vastly physically superior to him? Keep in mind that both Bruce and Sean are ex-SD guys who have nothing but disdain for Sin The and the lies he told. However, I’ll guess that neither one of them (probably even both at the same time) would think they would last long with Mike Reid.

[MasterKiller]

also, i meant to say that i sometimes tap black belts, but that more often than not i wind up in draws when it's not a tap (with those that i roll with---and i don't roll with only black belts).

bullsh1t alert

[sean_stonehart]

This contention that there isn’t a single skilled martial artist in SD doesn’t hold water. No video will ever be accepted as proof. Whatever is posted would be instantly criticized as willing opponents, staged, unskilled opponents, etc.

Do those of you who insist no one in SD could possibly fight have some evidence to back that up? Bruce has been all over the world and will “roll” with anyone. There may not be many people here that have worked with Bruce - but there are a lot on RSF. Does someone have a story of easily defeating him?

Mike Reid has been teaching down in Atlanta for almost 20 years. Do any of you have a story of being vastly physically superior to him? Keep in mind that both Bruce and Sean are ex-SD guys who have nothing but disdain for Sin The and the lies he told. However, I’ll guess that neither one of them (probably even both at the same time) would think they would last long with Mike Reid.

Dear God no... I'm a bit brash & such at times, but stupid... no. I'm not stupid.